Open newman-iknewit opened 4 years ago
Thanks @newman-iknewit , As you mentioned, it is an issue with documentation rather than a bug. I'll update the difficulty ratings
Thanks again
Cool, thanks! I just found another one, in the other direction:
........1.....2.3...4.5.6.....1...7...6..3.2..8..4.9...48.......657.....9...6.5..
10.7/10.7/10.0 - Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+ Multiple Forcing Chains)
Thanks,
I will leave this issue open for a while in case there are more of these around. The quoted ranges have been based on one user's collated observations. In theory we may have lower or higher ratings! I'll update when examples extend these ranges.
I posted about this as well on the New Sudoku Players forum: http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/s-e-records-in-the-patterns-game-t6695-15.html#p292807
Here's a couple more:
........1.....2.....1345.....36....7.2.....8.9.....5....6.7...3.8.....2.5.....9..
9.7/9.7/9.3 - Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
........1.......23..1..245...3..5..2.4..6....7..8.......5..9.1..8..7....6..4.....
11.5/11.5/11.2 - Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Multiple Forcing Chains)
minlex form of 1.......7.2.4...6...3...5...4.2.9.......46.9....5.......7...1...8.9...2.5.......3;11.50;11.50;11.20;col;H6;133;21;
I'll post them in the forum too, but it may be a bit before they show up (still a new user). [edit]Never mind, I guess I don't need approval any more![/edit]
Found a better +MFC:
..............1..2.13.4..5...6..3....751...3.8...5.....47....1..5.7..9..6..4..5.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2 (DCFC+MFC)
After stepping through it, this may be just due to the batch solving. Applying everything 11.4 and below still got to a solution. (I was using new ratings/order, vs. 1.2.1 for the original rating, so maybe that made a difference.)
That explains it!!!
I found another one, and stepping through with 1.2.1 mode shows that it does need the 11.6.
........1..2..3....4.15..6......17...5.63..8.9.........3......84.5.8.6..6..4...3. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2 (DCFC+MFC)
Here's the candidate grid after eliminating candidates from the lower rated 11.X +MFCs.
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 35 6789 3679 | 2789 24679 246789 | 234589 2479 1 |
| 158 16789 2 | 789 469 3 | 4589 4579 4579 |
| 378 4 3789 | 1 5 2789 | 2389 6 2379 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 238 268 3468 | 2589 249 1 | 7 2459 3456 |
| 127 5 147 | 6 3 2479 | 1249 8 249 |
| 9 12678 134678 | 2578 247 24578 | 12345 1245 3456 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 127 3 179 | 2579 12679 56 | 2459 124579 8 |
| 4 1279 5 | 3 8 279 | 6 1279 279 |
| 6 12789 1789 | 4 1279 2579 | 1259 3 257 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
I'd be curious whether there are any lower rated +DFCs that solve this.
I haven't stepped through this one yet, but:
........1..2..3..4.5..6.27.....8.52.5..9.6...8.......6..76..4...6.....1.2...7.8.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2 (DCFC+MFC)
(Like the 11.6s, skfr_ER for this is 11.2.)
Yep, it gets to the 11.7 using 1.2.1 mode. Here's the pencilmark grid:
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 34679 3489 34689 | 24578 2459 245789 | 369 358 1 |
| 1679 1789 2 | 1578 159 3 | 69 589 4 |
| 1349 5 13489 | 148 6 1489 | 2 7 389 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 134679 13479 13469 | 1347 8 147 | 5 2 379 |
| 5 12347 134 | 9 1234 6 | 137 348 378 |
| 8 2379 1349 | 123457 12345 12457 | 1379 349 6 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 139 138 7 | 6 1359 1258 | 4 39 25 |
| 349 6 34589 | 23458 2349 2489 | 379 1 23579 |
| 2 1349 13459 | 1345 7 1459 | 8 6 359 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
Is there any way to check for the existence of +DFC chains from this grid short of rebuilding SE?
........1.....2.3...4.5.6....756.....6..4.8..9....3.....87..5..1......4.2.......9 ED=11.1/11.1/2.6 (DCFC+FC)
Yep, it gets to the 11.7 using 1.2.1 mode. Here's the pencilmark grid:
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 34679 3489 34689 | 24578 2459 245789 | 369 358 1 |
| 1679 1789 2 | 1578 159 3 | 69 589 4 |
| 1349 5 13489 | 148 6 1489 | 2 7 389 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 134679 13479 13469 | 1347 8 147 | 5 2 379 |
| 5 12347 134 | 9 1234 6 | 137 348 378 |
| 8 2379 1349 | 123457 12345 12457 | 1379 349 6 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 139 138 7 | 6 1359 1258 | 4 39 25 |
| 349 6 34589 | 23458 2349 2489 | 379 1 23579 |
| 2 1349 13459 | 1345 7 1459 | 8 6 359 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
Is there any way to check for the existence of +DFC chains from this grid short of rebuilding SE?
You should be able to paste the PM grid which should continue exactly from that point (unless I misunderstood your question)
When I "Get all hints" at this point, it only returns +MFC chains. My question is whether there is a way to force it to also look for +DFC chains - obviously it will do so if there are no +MFC chains available, but in this case there's the 11.7 so that's all that shows up. (Having a separate checkbox for +FC, +MFC, and +DFC would work; currently, there is Dynamic Forcing Chains, Dynamic Forcing Chains (+), and Nested Forcing Chains - I assume the latter covers all of D*FC+FC/+MFC/+DFC?)
Just curious if there is a +DFC with a lower rating in this case.
Did you try "nexr step"?
There's a sukaku grid at http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/pencilmark-only-sudoku-t4929.html with only candidates:
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 1237 1256 36789 | 25789 4789 4569 | 1679 23457 1348 |
| 2456 13489 3459 | 1356 3679 1247 | 2478 5789 12368 |
| 2358 24789 1267 | 2489 123457 13468 | 34569 4568 1279 |
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|
| 1569 2578 3457 | 145678 3459 2356 | 234689 1236 146789 |
| 3679 12348 2489 | 1236 56789 1569 | 2357 1489 4579 |
| 14689 1567 234678 | 1237 12489 34578 | 1235 5789 6789 |
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|
| 24789 3678 1469 | 1346 1246 1357 | 5689 1256789 2345 |
| 1238 4569 125678 | 3579 2347 2689 | 1479 1348 2356 |
| 3457 3789 1256 | 23489 14568 256789 | 1578 23569 1457 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
It ends up with a 27 view contradiction forcing chain
When I "Get all hints" at this point, it only returns +MFC chains. My question is whether there is a way to force it to also look for +DFC chains - obviously it will do so if there are no +MFC chains available, but in this case there's the 11.7 so that's all that shows up.
Other SudokuExplainers have implemented Shift or Ctrl keypress with the "Get all hints" button to return more hints - this extra processing can take a bit longer to return hints. See: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sudoku-explainer/ (use Shift + 'Get all hints') https://github.com/1to9only/SukakuExplainer (use Shift or Crtl + 'Get all hints')
Thought I would get a count of puzzles at each rating to see how much overlap there was in the DFC levels; was surprised to find that I've actually generated a few lowering the bounds again:
........1.....1....23.4..5...6..3.2...74...1.2...6.5....8..4.6..79....3.6...3...5|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1.....1....12.3..4..2..5.4..5....6.2.7..3...1..5..6...48....3.5.9.7....6.|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1.....1.....2.3..4..5...3.6..78....9.6...9...4.6...9.2..8.3...1.21..6.4..|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1..1..2....3.45..2...3.4..5..5.6.7....8..9...2.1..7.2...4......53...14.8.|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1..1..2....3.45..2...3.4..5..5.6.7....8..9...2.18...2...4......53...14.8.|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1....23.....41...2...1..52.4.6.....7..7.4..1....62.......75...4.8....19..|10.6|1.2|1.2|DDFC+MFC
So +DFC is 11.3-11.9, and +MFC is 10.6-11.7
And confirming +FC goes all the way down to 9.9:
........1.....2.....3.4..56....6.....4.3.71...7....8...3..7..4.5.....9..6....5.2.|9.9|1.2|1.2|DRFC+FC
6 more of these at 22c. I have 9 grids with 11.1 +FC (one of which is posted above).
Thought I would get a count of puzzles at each rating to see how much overlap there was in the DFC levels; was surprised to find that I've actually generated a few lowering the bounds again:
........1.....1....23.4..5...6..3.2...74...1.2...6.5....8..4.6..79....3.6...3...5|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1.....1....12.3..4..2..5.4..5....6.2.7..3...1..5..6...48....3.5.9.7....6.|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1.....1.....2.3..4..5...3.6..78....9.6...9...4.6...9.2..8.3...1.21..6.4..|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1..1..2....3.45..2...3.4..5..5.6.7....8..9...2.1..7.2...4......53...14.8.|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1..1..2....3.45..2...3.4..5..5.6.7....8..9...2.18...2...4......53...14.8.|11.3|1.2|1.2|DLFC+DFC
........1....23.....41...2...1..52.4.6.....7..7.4..1....62.......75...4.8....19..|10.6|1.2|1.2|DDFC+MFC
So +DFC is 11.3-11.9, and +MFC is 10.6-11.7
Thanks. These are currently on Wiki quoted as:
10.7-11.5?: Dynamic Forcing Chains(+Multiple Forcing Chains) 11.4-11.9: Dynamic Forcing Chains(+Dynamic Forcing Chains)
So I will need to update them
Hadn't checked this in a while, but at some point I lowered the +DFC range again:
........1.....1....23.4..5...6..3.2..7.4...1.2...8.5....9..4.8..67....3.8...3...5 ED=11.2/1.2/1.2 DLFC+DFC
SE Chains ratings are made up of a Base Rating + a Complexity Rating which depends on the total (including nested) chain length. In the SE code chain length is also referred to as chain complexity. And elsewhere I refer to nodes, which is just chain complexity minus 2.
BASE RATING
Technique Chain Nesting Base
Level Level Multi Dynamic Nishio Rating
ForcingChainCycle 0 false false false 6.6 7.0 if both X-/Y- chains
NishioForcingChain 0 true true 7.5
DynamicForcingChain 0 true true 8.5
MultipleForcingChain 0 true 8.0
DynamicForcingChainPlus 1 0 true true 9.0 + nested sets!
NestedForcingChain 2 0 true true 9.5 + nested ForcingChainCycle (6.6)
NestedForcingChain 3 0 true true 10.0 + nested MultipleForcingChain (8.0)
NestedForcingChain 4 0 true true 10.5 + nested DynamicForcingChain (8.5)
NestedForcingChain 4 1 true true 10.5 + nested DynamicForcingChainPlus (9.0)
NestedForcingChain 4 2 true true 10.5 + nested NestedForcingChain (9.5)
COMPLEXITY RATING
+ 0.0 : 1 - 4 nodes
+ 0.1 : 5 - 6 nodes
+ 0.2 : 7 - 8 nodes
+ 0.3 : 9 - 12 nodes
+ 0.4 : 13 - 16 nodes
+ 0.5 : 17 - 24 nodes
+ 0.6 : 25 - 32 nodes
+ 0.7 : 33 - 48 nodes
+ 0.8 : 49 - 64 nodes
+ 0.9 : 65 - 96 nodes
+ 1.0 : 97 - 128 nodes
+ 1.1 : 129 - 192 nodes
+ 1.2 : 193 - 256 nodes
+ 1.3 : 257 - 384 nodes
+ 1.4 : 385 - 512 nodes
+ 1.5 : 513 - 768 nodes
+ 1.6 : 769 - 1024 nodes
+ 1.7 : 1025 - 1536 nodes
+ 1.8 : 1537 - 2048 nodes
+ 1.9 : 2049 - 3072 nodes
+ 2.0 : 3073 - 4096 nodes
+ 2.1 : 4097 - 6144 nodes
+ 2.2 : 6145 - 8192 nodes
+ 2.3 : 8193 - 12288 nodes
+ 2.4 : 12289 - 16384 nodes
+ 2.5 : 16385 - 24576 nodes
+ 2.6 : 24577 - 32768 nodes
+ 2.7 : 32769 - 49152 nodes
+ 2.8 : 49153 - 65536 nodes
+ 2.9 : 65537 - 98304 nodes
So it is possible to get similar rated puzzles with vastly different chains length:
11.6, Contradiction Forcing Chain (w/816 nodes)
11.6, Nested Forcing Chains (+ Multiple Forcing Chains), ED=10.0 + 1.6 (769-1024 nodes)
4.69......2...8...5..6..7..9.4...5..........8.1...7.3...74..6.......9..1....3..2. # 0414 12 11.6/11.6/9.3
11.6, Region Forcing Chains (w/158 nodes)
11.6, Nested Forcing Chains (+ Dynamic Forcing Chains), ED=10.5 + 1.1 (129-192 nodes)
.....3..7.7.....1...9.6.8.......1..5..8.2.9..4..6.......6.4.2...5.....3.2..8..... # 0427 2 11.6/11.6/9.9
The 2 puzzles are from the Patterns Game.
In Classic Sudoku, typically the highest rated puzzles have 257-384 nodes (ED=11.8) and 385-512 nodes (ED=11.9).
In 16x16 Sudoku, the highest rated puzzle I've seen has 24577-32768 nodes (ED=13.1).
More a curiosity than an issue. The following puzzle:
........1.....2.3...4.5.6....57......1...8...7..59.4....96..5...3........4.....82
Has a difficulty rating of 11.0 (Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)), which is above the range listed in the wiki for Dynamic (+Forcing). Just wondering if the ranges on the wiki need updating. (I'm using version 1.15.10, but get the same result rating with Explainer 1.2.1 mode.)