BOM for Little Sixteen V3 Board

[Snocksman]

Hi !

Is there a BOM for the little Sixteen V3 Board available ? I ordered some Boards but could not find a BOM yet.

Greetings Mathias

[SukkoPera]

Nope, haven't had time to put one together yet. Maybe you can help with it? You can start with what you can find in Kicad.

[Snocksman]

OK, i´ll have a look at Kicad. So I have something to do at the weekend... ;D When I got the BOM ready, you can add it to this cool project.

[SukkoPera]

Yup, let's leave this open then!

[Snocksman]

Hi !

I have found most of the Components, but for some i need a few more informations/values (maybe an example part):

CT1 D12 EM3, EM4, EM5 FB2, FB3, FB4,... FB12, FB13, FB14,... L1 L81

And I need to know which type of resistor Packs are used in RP1, RP2, RP3,... Are they parallel, or star-connected ?

Thank you ! Best, Mathias

[SukkoPera]

In our test build we used DSS1NB32A101Q91A for all EM and FB, totalling 51 of them. These filters are better than ferrites, but they also used to be more expensive, so Commodore only used them where essential, falling back to ferrites wherever possible.

These days I can't seem to find any reasonable ferrite that is significantly cheaper, so using filters everywhere is probably the best option. This one MIGHT do, but you're not going to save much anyway:

https://www.mouser.it/ProductDetail/Fastron/BEAD-4-900R-02

@kinmami: Any thoughts about that?

RP1, RP2 and RP5 are BUSSED. RP3 and RP4, RP90 and RP91 are ISOLATED.

Other P/Ns from our test build: CT1: EW Electronics GKG50015 D12: NZX6V8D,133 (Make sure to see the Errata page on the Wiki) L1: Bourns 9250A-122-RC L81: TE Connectivity SC30100KT

[kinmami]

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/laird-signal-integrity-products/28L0138-80R-10/1015875

https://www.mouser.it/ProductDetail/Laird-Performance-Materials/28L0138-80R-10?qs=qgZcrvoyHAd98f%252B0tLOU0Q%3D%3D

[Snocksman]

Thank you for your answers ! Three questions are left:

I found these here at rs-online.com: DSS1NB32A271Q91A This should be a better equivalent for the Filters found on the original Commodore Boards...? => https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/signalfilter/2166093

Do you think this one will work for L81 ? https://www.reichelt.de/festinduktivitaet-axial-micc-ferrit-10--l-micc-10--p86427.html?&trstct=pol_1&nbc=1

I forgot to ask for CR100... Will this one fit ? https://www.reichelt.de/brueckengleichrichter-400-v-1-5-a-b280c1500rund-p181715.html?&nbc=1

[SukkoPera]

I'll leave the word to @kinmami :).

[kinmami]

Thank you for your answers ! Three questions are left:

I found these here at rs-online.com: DSS1NB32A271Q91A This should be a better equivalent for the Filters found on the original Commodore Boards...? => https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/signalfilter/2166093

Do you think this one will work for L81 ? https://www.reichelt.de/festinduktivitaet-axial-micc-ferrit-10--l-micc-10--p86427.html?&trstct=pol_1&nbc=1

I forgot to ask for CR100... Will this one fit ? https://www.reichelt.de/brueckengleichrichter-400-v-1-5-a-b280c1500rund-p181715.html?&nbc=1

Yes I think all of those above are compatible, thanks

[msuontausta]

I've also been putting together a BOM with @Jartza. We have gathered links to Digikey and some other places. @SukkoPera, I sent you a PM about this on Facebook.

[SukkoPera]

I would have never noticed that if you didn't tell me here, please don't use FB. Of course I'm interested in adding that, that's how open stuff works: everyone does a little bit :).

If you put it here, maybe @Snocksman can cross-check it with his?

[msuontausta]

Here's our list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dDgSGAWIuUnK9-j-XhQTBRzt-erFqXx8YhXyfMe616A/edit?usp=sharing

It's a bit rough around the edges and comments are in Finnish but all of the necessary information should be there. :)

[SukkoPera]

Yeah! Thanks a lot! 👍

[Snocksman]

@msuontausta Hey, thats cool. I could put my Reichelt order Information next to it, but I have only read permissions on the sheet.

Another question (maybe not really right to that issue): I got a W27C512. Is there any Information in which order i have to put the Basic,Kernal,Char-ROMs to the EEPROM ?

[SukkoPera]

Yes, if you plan to use the all-in-one ROM, have a look at this.

Actually make sure to read the whole document, and take care of the erratas.

[msuontausta]

@msuontausta Hey, thats cool. I could put my Reichelt order Information next to it, but I have only read permissions on the sheet.

@Snocksman I can grant you edit permissions if you make a request using your Google account.

[MC6809E089]

Hi, sorry to ask but does anyone know where I can source a suitable new connector for the cartridge port?

[SukkoPera]

You need to salvage it from an old board unfortunately :(. In V5 we'll turn it to the same connector as the C64, at least that one is still around.

[MC6809E089]

Ah, thanks for your reply (and also, all of your hard work!)! I'll see if I can find a broken old board on the internet to scavenge one from. :)

[MC6809E089]

Hi,

Sorry to bother you but I've built a couple of L16 boards but am having trouble getting them to work fully. Sukko helped me get them both booting (Thank you!), I had to remove the EMI filters at FB38, FB39 and FB40. Now I have both boards working, I've been trying to figure out how to improve the video out, and also get the keyboard working properly. No matter how I've adjusted the video out (I've tried swapping the VRs for the fixed values suggested), it is still very fuzzy and also has a lot of ghosting on it. The keyboard is also detecting the wrong key presses for some keys, intermittently.

I followed the BOM exactly and sourced all new components from Mouser, and the original ICs from a couple of working C16s, so I believe they're all genuine parts and functioning. Because I have two new boards, and also two original ones, I have been able to swap and check all ICs, and also the two C16 keyboards, and everything seems to be working as it should in the orignal boards. I'm left wondering what the problem could be. Unless I made the same mistake on both L16 boards (always possible), I'd expect them to at least behave differently but the poor picture quality and bad key press detection is present and identical on both boards.

Since Sukko already suggested removing some of the EMI filters, and these are quite different from the original boards, I was wondering if it might also be the EMI filters causing the issues with the video out and keyboard? The value on the BOM for all DSS1N components is 0.01uF, when I looked at the schematics for other Commodore machines, that size only seems to be used on things like power rails, with the signal lines having much smaller values, and the high frequency lines like the video out lines quite often just having ferrite beads instead. I can see on the original C16 boards that the LUM, CHROMA and COMP have EMI filters on them but I can't tell if the value is the same 0.01uF as that on the L16 BOM.

So I guess my questions are, do you think it might be worth trying different values for the EMI filters? And if so, do you have any suggestions what good values for the video and keyboard ones might be?

Thanks very much for your help and advice, and have a very Happy New Year! :)

[kinmami]

Hello. I have personally tested the listed parts without any problems, so I'm not certain about the root cause. You can try using an alternative part and let us know if it resolves the issue.

[MC6809E089]

Thanks very much, it's good to know you've built one with the same new components I did. I can't think what else might be different other than maybe did you build your test boards to be NTSC? Mine are PAL, so in the absence of anything else obvious, I'm wondering if that makes any difference to the signals somehow.

I don't know if I just did something wrong, or if I have some kind of component that's different somehow to what everyone else is using. I always assume it's me until I've checked everything to be sure it's not!

[kinmami]

I have tested PAL machines with different custom chips. Please try with this ferrite https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/kemet/B-01-RS/10442402 It is designed for signal / audio line filtering. The central holes in your PCB will be float.

[MC6809E089]

Thanks, I will give them a try and report back. :)

[MC6809E089]

Hi again, I just wanted to report back on my progress, in case it is helpful to folks. I have now removed all of the original 0.01uF DSS1N filter caps listed in the BOM, and replaced them with the following...

EM3, EM4, EM5 - DSS1NB32A271Q91A 270pF filter cap: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/DSS1NB32A271Q91A?qs=0Ys4hG7ORMdMh3s4a3P7nA%3D%3D (Same capacitance value as is on original C16 boards)

FB1...FB95 - 28L0138-80R-10 86 Ohm @ 100MHz ferrite bead: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Laird-Performance-Materials/28L0138-80R-10?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252BjC5l7YW%2FVzMlcaO9tAGwosoIUTdg%3D (they were about a quarter of the price), and again they seemed close enough to what was on the original C16 boards)

I know this means that the boards I built will have less filtering than the ones you built to test your designs but all of the problems I was experiencing have now gone. Both keyboards I have now work properly on both new boards, both the original and the replacement the PLAs seem to work properly and the machines start up every time, the games and demos with fastloaders now load and work from my PI-1541, and the intermittent wobbly video picture I had, which was also reported by others, has gone too.

The board design itself works great, it seems (for me at least) it was just the filter caps causing all of the issues I was experiencing.

Next stop for me is to build some of your expansion cartridges and test those out too.

Thanks very much for all of your hard work and your help, I am a very happy amateur hardware builder! :)

[kinmami]

Hi again, I just wanted to report back on my progress, in case it is helpful to folks. I have now removed all of the original 0.01uF DSS1N filter caps listed in the BOM, and replaced them with the following...

EM3, EM4, EM5 - DSS1NB32A271Q91A 270pF filter cap: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/DSS1NB32A271Q91A?qs=0Ys4hG7ORMdMh3s4a3P7nA%3D%3D (Same capacitance value as is on original C16 boards)

FB1...FB95 - 28L0138-80R-10 86 Ohm @ 100MHz ferrite bead: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Laird-Performance-Materials/28L0138-80R-10?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252BjC5l7YW%2FVzMlcaO9tAGwosoIUTdg%3D (they were about a quarter of the price), and again they seemed close enough to what was on the original C16 boards)

I know this means that the boards I built will have less filtering than the ones you built to test your designs but all of the problems I was experiencing have now gone. Both keyboards I have now work properly on both new boards, both the original and the replacement the PLAs seem to work properly and the machines start up every time, the games and demos with fastloaders now load and work from my PI-1541, and the intermittent wobbly video picture I had, which was also reported by others, has gone too.

The board design itself works great, it seems (for me at least) it was just the filter caps causing all of the issues I was experiencing.

Next stop for me is to build some of your expansion cartridges and test those out too.

Thanks very much for all of your hard work and your help, I am a very happy amateur hardware builder! :)

A word of appreciation for your troubleshooting and reporting. We are going to update the BOM list accordingly.