[Feature Request]: Kaizo, Shell jumps, "advanced" tech

swagtoy commented 1 month ago

Feature Details

Kaizo is a very popular gameplay mechanic/exploit used in a game involved a very mustachioed Italian. SuperTux however, doesn't make this easy.

Note: "Shell jumps" will be synonymous with the Ice block. This is the terminology that many Kaizo fans are familiar with, so for simplicity sake, I will keep them as synonyms.

Angled "shell"/ice block throws make shell jumps difficult
No midairs (this is good in my book)
No "spin jump"/spike bouncing techniques/ice block juggling (it might be possible, but i'd need to hook a controller up to test it)
Generally just not much to do with the badguys and tiles built into the game. A lot of enemies are just.. enemies. Come in and knock them out. There isn't much we can use them for, unfortunately, that I am aware of.

Now, scripts allow for some variety of tech that can be implemented manually, but these aren't "exploits", and they are especially difficult to consistently produce.

A lot of issues stem from how aggresively close-cut the badguy hitboxes are. Simply toning these down, and giving Txu more space to "hit" the top of an enemy would essentially fix shell-jumping

Feature Purpose

Tech levels/worlds, that take the built-in physics of the game, exploiting them, are something worth considering. There have been bugs, like sliding into the roof of slopes, but I cannot reproduce this anymore as it was likely patched out, however it allowed for unique platforming techniques.

Generally speaking, tech-themed level design is actually what Mario World rom hacking is extremely focused on. There is a huge tech community behind these types of games, but Supertux aims for very traditional, "well-done" physics (but ANYONE who likes steak well done might as well eat cardboard).

Not much should need to be done; making badguy hitboxes a bit more leniant, maybe allowing more sliding mechanics against walls, or allowing diagonally thrown items to "bounce back". However, as it stands, the hitboxes are too small for even basic 0 degree wall-to-player shell jumps.

The only downside out of this would be that players could "exploit" already-existing levels. However, I would not consider this a downside. Exploiting levels (i.e., skipping a wall by using an ice block, or juggling 2 ice blocks [a "double shell jump"]) are sometimes liked, and are even considered good game design! Exploiting levels makes a player "feel good", like they cheated, and as if they outsmarted the designers. And if they really were an issue, it's 100% possible to have scripts (did Tux last jump off of an ice block?) and tricks to prevent exploits. There are already exploits in levels via powerups and such, so there is no point in pretending this won't deal any new damage.

Concept Screenshots

No response

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[X] I have read https://github.com/SuperTux/supertux/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#bug-reports.
[X] I have verified this isn't a request that's already been submitted as an issue.
[X] I have verified this isn't a discussion, or an issue with the game, but rather an actual feature request - a currently non-existent, but desired feature.
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swagtoy commented 1 month ago

i think the biggest concern here is the diagonal ice block throwing, I don't want to remove this, but I think it would be nice if it was easier to use. I feel like i'm accidentally using it a lot more than I'm not.

HybridDog commented 1 month ago

Ice block shell jumps are already possible in SuperTux: https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/098f4b11-83c3-431d-a9a6-b50c1f733917

I'm against making these jumps even easier to perform.

swagtoy commented 1 month ago

Hey can you include the full video (~15 minutes) where you kept trying to shell jump and dying? It would help your defense.

swagtoy commented 1 month ago

Seriously.... You think this is "easy"? Someone else complained about the hitboxes causing issues (player hitting edge of badguy and getting hurt), so this goes deeper than just "you can't perform a shell jump", it is an issue with hitboxes.

Try this on a keyboard, and you'll end up with a few less keys than when you started. This can't be kept as is. Most shell jumps in practice actually are done not starting from the ground, but caught/juggled and throw at a wall while falling.

What you have showcased, when done in practice, might require tool assistance to accomplish in a full blown level with moving. It's just too difficult.

bruhmoent commented 1 month ago

As a speedrunner, I object against it. It's not actually that difficult.

MatusGuy commented 1 month ago

Ice block shell jumps are already possible in SuperTux

I thought this issue was in context of lastest master???

swagtoy commented 1 month ago

As a speedrunner, I object against it. It's not actually that difficult.

I want it to be as easy to perform as it is in Mario.

Also.. this thread isnt limited to Shell jumps. Ive discussed elsewhere some ideas on utilizing the sliding mechanism for tech

HybridDog commented 1 month ago

I thought this issue was in context of lastest master???

Sorry, I didn't notice that my video is that old; it's from February 2019. Since the latest release happened in 2021, using a release or master may already make a difference.

Hey can you include the full video (~15 minutes) where you kept trying to shell jump and dying? It would help your defense.

I don't have a longer version of the old video.

swagtoy commented 1 month ago

Since the latest release happened in 2021, using a release or master may already make a difference.

Which is why I opened this issue... its the same as it always was.

I don't have a longer version of the old video.

Please tell me how long it took you to accomplish that Ice cube shell jump.

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