Possibility to have different link types

soliloquist-tatoeba commented 5 years ago

https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/31999

Linking sentences with similar patterns (localized names) has been discussed on the thread above. Having more than one type of links might help to overcome this issue.

I'm copying my thoughts here.

Some users are in favor of using links for translations only, but in a linguistic sense, the definition of link is not restricted to translations. Synonymous sentences are semantically linked, too. Sentences with similar patterns are also logically linked. What could be linked and what couldn't is a bit relative and vague.

I think it would be more comfortable having different types of links: one for translations, one for synonymous or closely-related sentences in the same language, and one for sentences with similar patterns (or localized sentences like #7947998 ) in the same language. I'm not sure how all these categories could be shown at the same time without creating a visual chaos though. Maybe some filtering/hiding options or a tree view with collapsing/expanding feature might be necessary.

Here is a rough image of the idea.

https://prnt.sc/ny3d99

link

jiru commented 5 years ago

Thanks, that’s a good idea but I think it needs more refinement. We’d better continue the discussion on the Wall so that other Tatoeba members can join the discussion too. I’m assigning the unclear label for now. I encourage you to come back here once you come up with something more precise and have clearer answers to the questions in the description of the unclear label.

ckjpn commented 5 years ago

I think this would likely be confusing, especially if they are called links.

"Related" could include too many sentences -- opposite meanings, different tenses, sentences used in a similar situation, ...

Perhaps having different types of comments could accomplish what soliloquist-tatoeba wants.

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1830

I'm not sure I understand "Similar Pattern." If you mean "same pattern", this list could be very long. "I like ___." for example http://tatoeba.org/sentences/search?from=eng&trans_to=und&query=%22%5EI+like%22&to=tur&sort=words

soliloquist-tatoeba commented 5 years ago

By 'related', I meant sentences used in similar situations, and by 'similar pattern', I meant sentences with different proper nouns. (otherwise same sentences)

"I was born in Canada" - "I was born in France" "Tom loves Mary" - "Sami loves Layla"

I see you leaving many comments on such Sami sentences, but I've never seen you doing that for "I like ___" type sentences. That would be overkill.

The categories I mentioned are just examples. Their names and numbers could be different. What I'm trying to say is that translating shouldn't be the only way of linking. We should be able to use Tatoeba for monolingual purposes, too.

Having different types of comments might be useful, if only comment information was labeled on sentences themselves. Currently, one has to go to each sentence's page to discover if it has any comments or not. It's not practical. I don't think many people notice comments after they fall to back pages of the comment feed.

jiru commented 5 years ago

@soliloquist-tatoeba I totally agree that Tatoeba should be usable for monolingual purposes too.

Please, let’s not focus on the solution (comments) but the problem. I understand "pattern" but "related" is still unclear to me. What are related sentences? Can you give more examples? What are you trying achieve with related sentences? In what ways that would be useful to you?

soliloquist-tatoeba commented 5 years ago

Related sentences are roughly equivalent sentences that are used in similar situations.

How are you? How are you doing? How is it going? What's up? How's things?

I'm going to sleep. I'm going to bed. I'm turning in. I'm hitting the hay.

Of course there might be some nuances (in terms of formality, for example) between them, but they could be clarified with tags or comments. I find grouping such sentences useful. It would help grasping the subject and choosing the right one depending on the situation.

sacredceltic commented 4 years ago

I strongly support the proposal by soliloquist. The types of links should be customisable for extension to other fields of application and the users should be able to decide, in their user’s parameters, which types they’re interested in.

ckjpn commented 4 years ago

Some Thoughts on This Suggestion

If something like this were to be implemented, here are some things to consider.

Possible New Different Types of Links

This is a list of start with. There are likely additions that could be made to this list and perhaps some of the list items could be merged into one item.

Same or Roughly the Same Meaning:

Exactly the same in meaning and usage -- I think that's true. / I think that that's true. -- Tom put his hat on. / Tom put on his hat. -- (Spelling differences: favorite / favourite, etc.)
Almost the same in meaning, but not always exactly the same usage -- Punctuation differences only. -- The same in meaning with the exception of what is emphasized -- The same in meaning but not the same politeness level -- The same in meaning but one is male speech and the other is female -- The same in meaning but a difference in who the sentence is spoken to. --- (to a male, to a female, to a child, to a superior, to a peer, etc.)

Same patterns - type 1 - similar to basic easy substitution drills with very similar words (proper nouns, etc.) -- My name is . (Tom / Ludwig / Hopkins / Hisashi / Wang / Jisung / Sascha) -- I live in . (Boston / Kakogawa / Milan / Helsinki / Moscow / Istanbul / Bucharest)
Same patterns - type 2 - similar to basic substitution drills with various vocabulary items -- I like . (tea / art / ham / dogs / cake / fish / jazz / snow / blue / rice) -- You should . (go / eat / call / wait / rest / stop / vote / begin)
Same patterns - type 2b - perhaps some people would consider these a different type -- You should ___. (study harder / do that someplace else / probably buy a swimsuit / do the honorable thing and resign)
Same patterns - type 3 - the same basic sentences with additional phrases and words, similar to traditional expansion drills. -- You should study. / You should study harder.
Same patterns - more general -- Like the sentences tagged SV, SVC, SVO, SVOO, SVOC -- This one would likely be better only with tags, but I've put it here to help make this list more comprehensive.
Situations -- Like the sentences tagged restaurant, post office, etc. -- (Perhaps better left as just tags.)
Similar functions -- Like the sentences tagged request, permission, desire, comparison, duration, frequency, ... -- (Perhaps better left as just tags.)
Opposite in meaning -- I like dogs. / I don't like dogs. -- I'm tall. / I'm short.
Same except for tenses -- I swim every day. / I swam every day.
Same except for singular and plural -- I have a dog. / I have dogs.
Same except for pronouns and/or names -- He is a doctor. / She is a doctor. / Tom is a doctor. / Sami is a doctor. / Mennad is a doctor. / Mr Brown is a doctor.
Same except for things other than names and pronouns -- My wife is a doctor. / My husband is a doctor. / My father is a doctor. / This man is a doctor. / An uncle of mine is a doctor.
Same except for male-female differences -- Examples in English would perhaps include: bride / groom; waiter / waitress; wife / husband; son / daughter; Mr. Jackson / Ms. Jackson; sir / ma'am; etc.
Passive / Active -- Tom was killed by a bear. / A bear killed Tom.

Displaying these kinds of links

It might be confusing to list these kinds of links along with the links to translations, so maybe another method of displaying these would be needed.

Some possibilities

Have a button or buttons for these on the page that could be clicked to display them, possibly only loading these on demand and not along with the page itself.
Have these displayed similar to how comments are displayed now, possibly before the comments.

Adding these kinds of links

Some kind of system would need to be developed for adding these kinds of links.

Perhaps this could be done with a "special links" drop down select menu that showed the various types of special links would be one way to do this.

soliloquist-tatoeba commented 4 years ago

A short-lived and failed experimental attempt to handle the issue with current tools and design:

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/8779062

Here are some more examples on the dev website:

Synonym: https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/7841796
Antonym: https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/7841797
Annotation for: https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/7841804
Same pattern with: https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/7841801

soliloquist-tatoeba commented 4 years ago

A draft visualization of the idea after some discussion on the dev site.

Tatoeba / tatoeba2