GameGuru Max - Feature Request - Enhancement - Sprite Based NPC's and Weaponry

[Lemuripest93]

I got a bit inspired by MonkeyFrogStudio on this one with his latest request: #3429

If games like Project Warlock 1 & 2, Post Void, Project Downfall, the upcoming Fallen Aces, the visual novel investigation game Paradise Killer, the excellent Thief inspired Filcher (as well of a slew of other games) have proven anything, it's that FPS games that use sprite art are still very much alive and booming.

Why specifically would this benefit Max? well for one making sprite art is a whole lot easier than 3D modelling, and while we can't do much in terms of character creation besides the bits and pieces that come with the engine and the Aztec DLC, sprite art could immediately be a nice remedy for a lot of users in terms of making a basic game with their own original sprite art in a 3D environment.

The same goes for sprite based weaponry, there are not a lot of weapons to comb through right now, but with a combination of sprite art for both NPC's and weaponry we're looking at near infinite options at the moment and most importantly it could also serve as a gentle introduction to game design for complete beginners.

There are already a ton of tools out there to make sprites, such as Aseprite, which is priced, or Piskel, which is free. However you can make sprites in Photoshop as well if that's an option you've got available to you, it's even possible to make sprites in GIMP and even Paint.NET which are also totally free - though i would personally recommend a tool designed for pixel art in mind.

(Screenshot from Ion Fury)

Imagine making an open world game with scenery like seen above? amazing potential!

[Lemuripest93]

I think were missing the point of what MAX as a product is, there are already loads of gamemakers and tools for pixel based games the whole point of Max is to move forward with easy game creation technology not back. That being said, although it would be an interesting proposition. I personnaly dont see it as a requirement though especially with VR possibilities for MAX in mind. TGC already have sprite based game makers no need to make more.

I would personally like the option, it doesn't move away from more modern games but rather widens the range of options an end user has for making games in the engine, basically it fuses both modern and retro gaming together, it's possible to have a game that looks graphically gorgeous whilst simultaneously have it use sprites for NPC's for instance.

What attracted me to this as an idea is that for one sprites are not performance intensive, meaning you could still have a more graphically modern game whilst having a battle with thousands of enemies at once for instance, this also works great for larger game worlds with a lot of objects, the less 3D objects and high-poly model you have to load, the better.

Though i do get your concern, but for me the more options one's got to make something in an engine - the more fun you'll have using that engine, even if there are other options out there - a great bonus is that this one is extremely easy to use.

Example: The game Paradise Killer usually looks like the image below, but for items and characters it uses sprite art. (It was made using Unreal Engine 4.)

[Lemuripest93]

Max is not Unreal 4. It has an objective of its own, it should evolve and develop on its own trajectory and not try to be hounded into being a Unreal/Unity copy there is no point in that. Despites some of its early day limits it still is an amazing peice of software and im sure other options for its development will show in due course.

You seem to have misunderstood the point of including the example, the example is not meant to directly compare Unreal Engine 4 to Max or vice versa, but rather to show that you can use sprites in a good looking or modern game, which was the emphasis of my reply to you. 🤔

[MonkeyFrogStudio]

Wow, @Necrym59 . I think you are missing the point completely here. Sprite-based characters and NPCs are very much a thing of RPGs, even RPGs with modern engines. They are what was used in DOOM. And, as a result, many modern RPGs like to use them as a homage to that style of game. It's also very interesting to combine old-school RPG elements with very modern ways of doing things. Games like Ion Fury (from the screen shot in the OP) do this. A lot of games will do things like mix very pixelated albedo textures that look like old-school DOOM-styled textures with modern normal maps, metallic, roughness, and AO, combining both worlds (old-school and new) for a unique look. Being able to add in sprite-based characters and objects is just fun and mixing these old-school elements with new-school techniques make for interesting and fun games that harken back to their origins.

Games like Project Warlock (mentioned in the OP), Graven, and Proteus are not old games, but new ones with modern technology. Instead of ray-casting to fake 3D, they use actual 3D environments. Instead of WADs with low-quality textures, they use pixelated albedo textures along with PBR materials for a unique look. There are shaders in use, too.

This is not about making MAX Unreal 4 or anything else. This is about being able to create FPS games in MAX that are more than just the player fighting soldiers and zombies. As @Lemuripest93 pointed out, not many are going to be able to model their own 3D characters, animate them, and get them into MAX. But some people will be able to create sprite-based animation and, if MAX were to have an easy way to add these things, get them into their FPS games. It's about options when creating FPS games. Sprites, like decals, should not be done away with. But, instead, be a part of MAX so that people can craft the FPS experience they want. And making a mash-up of modern/old-school games is really hot at the moment (and has been for a few years now).

[DaveTGC2]

There is certainly a place for this kind of game imo. Most likely after V1, as it's a different game really.

[MonkeyFrogStudio]

@DaveTGC2 How is it a different game? Modern retro-shooters use all the tools (PBR, true 3D environments, etc.) and just add in sprites for some objects and enemies. Some use 3D weapons, but some substitute sprite weapons. It's just a blend of original DOOM with modern FPS games.

[Lemuripest93]

There is certainly a place for this kind of game imo. Most likely after V1, as it's a different game really.

Thanks for giving my idea a chance, i don't mind waiting until after V1 since i wont start building my game until we're in V1 or V2 anyway.

[Necrym59]

Quite frankly i think this is irrelevant to even consider until possibly much later if at all and if there is more than just one person asking for it.

[MonkeyFrogStudio]

@Necrym59 This is a feature request. Nothing more. We cannot force it to be added or determine the timeframe in which it would be added. But we CAN make a feature request. If TGC likes it, they can put in on the backburner for as long as they like, even if that's years down the road. There is NO HARM in making a feature request. It's one of the reasons for posting here on GitHub. So, just because YOU see it as not being relevant at this time does not mean a feature request should not be made. And, as you can see, Dave already said that there's certainly a place for it ... AFTER V1.

[Necrym59]

Just what is the problem Monkey what have i done to deserve these tirades is noone allowed to have a comment unless stamped and approved by Lemurand/Monkey? This isnt a place for long winded rants its for discussion on possible valid feature requests nothing more.

[MonkeyFrogStudio]

@Necrym59 Sorry, man. Not angry and not a tirade. Discussion is certainly allowed. That includes my response to your post, right? However, what prompted me to respond to you was that your post didn't say anything that would enhance the request. It was just your thoughts on why you thought it was not relevant (doesn't help). My response was simple - the request was made, an answer from TGC was given, and the post labeled as an enhancement. No need to say you feel it's not relevant. It doesn't help as TGC can determine what is and isn't relevant for themselves, I think.

[Lemuripest93]

Just what is the problem Monkey what have i done to deserve these tirades is noone allowed to have a comment unless stamped and approved by Lemurand/Monkey? This isnt a place for long winded rants its for discussion on possible valid feature requests nothing more.

You're a perplexing individual, what makes you think this is a tirade? if you're going to discuss or criticize ideas you're going to have to expect push-back, whether this is by the person who writes down that idea, or by the people that likes said idea, this doesn't mean just me or MFS, but anyone in any forum.

Also you should note this down, i wouldn't make a request if i didn't think it would be useful for other people than me, a common criticism of Max and even Classic is that for a majority of users it was difficult to make anything besides a shooter where you either shoot (army) men or zombies, this request intends to broaden those horizons a little. I genuinely do not see the problem.

As stated by MFS, Dave already said there was place for this idea, and slapped the enhancement label on it, if they didn't like it, they wouldn't even consider it.

You've already been told by Rick before in my request for vehicles that this is not a debate forum, and that they welcome all kinds of ideas that they'll take into consideration.

I have nothing against you Necrym, but i find that if you keep things civil - things tend to turn out a lot better in the long run.

[Necrym59]

And it continues ..sigh Well i wont be involved any longer ive had enough im leaving the increasingly toxic and childish behaviour and self centred comments alone now i will no longer contribute here. The question that should be asked is how do any of the above tirades contribute and why do those not get a angry reponse but i do ?

[MonkeyFrogStudio]

And how does that contribute to this request?

[Lemuripest93]

And it continues ..sigh Well i wont be involved any longer ive had enough im leaving the increasingly toxic and childish behaviour and self centred comments alone now i will no longer contribute here. The question that should be asked is how do any of the above tirades contribute and why do those not get a angry reponse but i do ?

My oh my...

Apologies if this comes across as extremely uncomfortable and personal Necrym, but no one is asking you to comment on anyone's ideas, you haven't been hired to do that, that's the devs and employees of TGC's job to do, it's fine if we discuss things, but you can do it in a way that makes it less about your own ambitions with the engine, and more about the bigger community as a whole that is going to be using this engine to build their games with their own ideas - which.. any idea is valid as long as it's possible to add, that of course also means yours.

It's fine if you don't like some of my ideas, personally i don't mind, really - it's the tone you take that i do mind. I openly encourage discourse about ideas, but the angle you take is extremely important so people can also be more receptive to the criticism you send their way. It's also important to look at the positives of an idea or how they can be improved instead of completely dismissing them and tearing them down, when you do that it negatively influences people and might even discourage them from even using the engine, if the bigger community they've been led to isn't going to help them or encourage them, why bother?

There appears to me at least that there might be some issues irrelevant to GitHub and GameGuru that might keep you down? and i will say this without it being intended as an insult or anything, but if you've got some personal issues, seek out some help, professional or otherwise so your life can be improved. If there is no such issues, disregard this part of the comment.

Again, apologies if this comes across as too personal, but for me this had to be said and only comes from a point of empathy.