EX / Mana / etc

[wtl420]

Let's figure out the exact structure of EX here.

We might also want to think of things like where EX is earned, so the topic of classes can come into here as well.

Blocked by #4 and #5

[DarkoJohnny]

I like the current structure of EX as it is now so I don't really have any suggestiosn to change that. Instead I'll focus on gaining EX. Daily login/posting bonuses. Not joking. Give posters a steady flow of EX from visiting the forum daily and posting at least once. Keep the large amount of bonus EX for making threads but cap it out at like 3 a day to prevent Puddin/Zelma style tactics.

Big bonus from Good Shts and a bigger one from hitting a Great Sht. Making quality posts (and spellcasts) consistently should give you a lot of EX income. This is not too different from how it is right now. A concept I'd like would be Reaction Chains -- If a post gets a lot of a singular kind of reaction, the reaction bubble changes color up to bronze/silver/gold/rainbow and you get bonus EX for reaching the different reaction ranks. This means that those piled on MWgrins and idfugits would be very beneficial.

Controversially, EX decay. If a (non-NPC) user does not cast any spells within a certain amount of time, they begin to lose EX gradually and it ramps up the longer the duration. This will make people upset but it stops hoarding and encourages casting, decay of some form for not playing is a completely normal part of most metagame formats, why not ours? To counterbalance issues caused by this for the sort of users that only check in once a year or something, give a returning member bonus and a special week-long extra large login bonus including stuff like Items and whatnot to catch them back up and potentially keep them coming back. Mad mobile game strats at play.

[keithpickering]

I would like to seriously consider getting rid of EX in favor of two values, Currency and Mana (names pending)

Some slack discussion from last October:

wtl 4:58 AM
Yeah I’m thinking it would be best to change ex to mana
Have like 3-5 tiers of spells and the bar just fills up with different colors like a reverse kingdom hearts health bar

No exp, but we can have money or something
Make it so you can accumulate it, put it in a bank, taxes, idk what else
Tbf it’d be funny if you couldn’t spend it ever
spritey 6:42 AM
We could do the item shop finally
If we come up with useful items it would be a good idea
I think some of the items we already have are pretty cool but either the implementation is lacking or there's just not enough activity to justify using them
I like the spell tiers, seems much more streamlined
We should probably still have the amount of Mana left until the next tier listed somewhere
We could call the money Sh*t Tokens or something
Use the design we currently have for the image in the "you found EX" events
Just a gold coin with a minus
Maybe one item could instantly charge you to the next Mana tier so in that way you can still pay for spells to an extent
wtl 7:08 AM
I feel like we can come up with something funny for currency

this works pretty much like the star meter in TTYD
6 levels seems good to start, we could potentially make a big deal out of adding new levels later on
this also effectively color-codes spell tiers, so the cheapest spells could be referred to as "purple spells" and so on
or just "tier 1 spells" but the colors are fun
rtsmarty 12:45 PM
how does mana get restored?
spritey 12:45 PM
I dunno if we've determined that yet
good sh*ts on spells would be my first guess
rtsmarty 12:46 PM
do you start with full mana?
spritey 12:46 PM
or maybe all the stuff that normally gets you EX now could charge your mana instead, and money would have to be earned in different ways
like winning games or w/e
starting with full mana would be funny
actually it's a good idea since people can get used to spells right away
rtsmarty 12:47 PM
start with full mana but you need to be level X to use Y spell
spritey 12:47 PM
yeah we could maybe do something like that
like you have to reach a certain level to earn the next tier
idk what will cause you to level up though, maybe we'll need to keep track of some kind of EX still
rtsmarty 12:48 PM
use sweet spells 100 times to unlock the next sweet spell tier
spritey 12:49 PM
unlocking the whole tier at once (not just one alignment) would be better imo
rtsmarty 12:49 PM
maybe make different classes have different spell trees (complex)
spritey 12:50 PM
yeah we could have class exclusive spells for sure, as long as every spell costs a certain number of full mana "orbs"
that just makes it simpler so we don't need a cost for everything
rtsmarty 12:50 PM
yeh
i like the idea of purple spells/blue spells etc
rather than "300ex"
spritey 12:51 PM
for sure
rtsmarty 12:52 PM
maybe have mana restore over time, e.g. once per day
being the Top Poster for the day gets you 2 mana orbs

Basically just having one EX value is really simplistic and there's not a whole lot you can do with it; you also have two different styles of players (people who like to cast spells and people who like to rack up points) who are both dealing with EX in totally different ways. If we have Money and Mana, you have one value that you can accumulate to your heart's content, and another value reserved for spellcasting. The orb concept is also just a more fun way to go about it, it feels less like buying something and more like expending some kind of energy.

[keithpickering]

Also Good Sh*ts on spells restoring Mana is pretty awesome. Cast good spells and you get to cast more.

[DarkoJohnny]

I absolutely hate the idea of unlocking spells (Class-exclusive spell lists are great and would make for unique experiences, spells anyone can use but you have to be around for eons are not and would just turn new members off, I have avoided entire games over systems like that) but making casting more simplistic/streamlined is good.

Splitting EX into currency/mana would be ok. It's splitting where you get each that bugs me because I love the current system of posting well to gain EX and I don't feel like our current item system provides much reward at all for what you could buy. The fact that we haven't added jack and shit for items over time makes me worry about the dev future of that as well when people buy enough stuff from the shop out of the initial selection. This is potentially a good idea of how to make use of classes though, some classes could gain money only from a small amount of things like logins/daily bonuses but gain mana the same way you get EX now whereas other classes might only gain it from positively received spellcasts like Spritey wants whereas everything else gives you currency to build up as e-peen like the stated problem with EX.

Due to this, I don't like the idea of mana restoring too quickly on its own, outside of maybe stuff like classes that have a low mana cap that prevents them from even casting any higher tier spells but they recharge to cap every day. Speaking of mana caps that does also solve the whole deal with me wanting EX decay as a solution to stockpiling it too hard so that's something.

[keithpickering]

Yeah I don't like the idea of restricting spells by anything but the Mana cost

On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 9:31 AM DarkoJohnny notifications@github.com wrote:

I absolutely hate the idea of unlocking spells (Class-exclusive spell lists are great and would make for unique experiences, spells anyone can use but you have to be around for eons are not and would just turn new members off, I have avoided entire games over systems like that) but making casting more simplistic/streamlined is good.

Splitting EX into currency/mana would be ok. It's splitting where you get each that bugs me because I love the current system of posting well to gain EX and I don't feel like our current item system provides much reward at all for what you could buy. The fact that we haven't added jack and shit for items over time makes me worry about the dev future of that as well when people buy enough stuff from the shop out of the initial selection. This is potentially a good idea of how to make use of classes though, some classes could gain money only from a small amount of things like logins/daily bonuses but gain mana the same way you get EX now whereas other classes might only gain it from positively received spellcasts like Spritey wants whereas everything else gives you currency to build up as e-peen like the stated problem with EX.

Due to this, I don't like the idea of mana restoring too quickly on its own, outside of maybe stuff like classes that have a low mana cap that prevents them from even casting any higher tier spells but they recharge to cap every day. Speaking of mana caps that does also solve the whole deal with me wanting EX decay as a solution to stockpiling it too hard so that's something.

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[FunWithDespair]

I first want to say that I absolutely love the idea of a "first post of the day" bonus to your EX/Currency/Mana. It's a great way of encouraging posts organically, and with MW being the community it is, it's unlikely that anyone besides maybe Black would just post borderline spam every day to get more EX.

On the subject of splitting EX into Mana and Currency, I'm partially in favor of it entirely because it allows us to basically cap the spellcasting resource, which lets us actively build a system of costs and rewards around a resource that people can't abuse as easily if they've been hoarding. For example using the "Star Power Meter" above, maybe Autoplay costs 2 "bars" of it, but making it Autoplay the entire thread is an option if you want to use 4 bars or exhaust your entire meter or something.

Whereas on current MW doubling the cost of Autoplay to make it affect the entire thread would be a pretty broken and spammable mechanic considering how relatively cheap Autoplay is and how much EX people have, limiting the cap to a quantifiable number means that it's basically impossible to abuse.

[DarkoJohnny]

Oh yeah I love the idea of boosted spells. That would be a great way to make use of the lowered cap without making it feel like a downgrade from the old way too.

[wtl420]

Mana

Definitely think we should rename EX to this now that we have the opportunity. One of the big issues with EX early on is that people didn't understand why it had a cap or why you'd spend it. It makes sense if you're familiar with fighting games but Mana seems like something more universally understood. It also has the bonus of making more sense as its used to cast spells.

I like the concept of displaying this as differnet colored orbs that get filled up rather than a bar. We could make spells cost orb #s instead of specific values. This is definitely more suited for #7 though.

A second point system

We already have a second point system with Rally technically. I really want to re-think rally since it seems like a cool concept that is unfortunately not very clear.

Something that always goes up like what people wanted with EX when it was called EXP might make sense... I guess it'd be good to give some indicator of who spends way too much time on the board. But on the other hand I don't really want to seem too clique either and I think that kind of stuff makes it seem that way.

I don't know what we'd spend it on and honestly I don't think we'd really need anything to spend it on. Some people just like to see numbers go up.

Dailies

I'm against the concept of daily bonuses, I don't think anything should be a daily obligation. I know it's a "bonus" but lots of people view it that way. I like the idea of rewarding activity though, and could absolutely see value in weekly, monthly, and maybe even yearly bonuses.

Penalties for inactivity is a bit rougher but I don't have a problem with mana decaying.

Reaction Chains

Awesome idea. I love what we did with Good Sh*ts and reactions deserve some similar treatment.

Spell Boosting

Cool idea for #7- there's a lot of overlap between spells and EX but I definitely want to get the earning mechanics figured out before the spending ones.

[wtl420]

I think only characters should be able to earn ex.

Anonymous actions like good sh*t or reactions or even anonymous posts can be tied to accounts but anything with attribution should be a character including earning ex.

[keithpickering]

Honestly I like the idea of all three existing:

• EXP (only goes up, represents your Level, hugely diminishing returns)
• Mana (for spellcasting, max amount varies depending on class, e.g. Wizards would have a couple extra which in effect means they have a couple exclusive spells. Maybe single-use items could temporarily give you an extra Mana orb as any class)
• Sh*t Tokens (for bartering items, bribery - given from random events, winning competitions, etc)

If we do have a currency I would love to have an actual economy where there are a set amount of tokens that change hands. We can see wealth inequality develop and then find fun ways to combat it. Maybe I'm a weirdo for thinking that sounds fun.

[FunWithDespair]

Also something kind of fun about having a limited mana bar that fills up quicker compared to EX: Rally can make a comeback as something other than a largely forgotten mechanic.

With an actual cap, stuff like Rally X becomes a legitimate tactic for a quicker recharge rather than a broken exploit that maxes out your level with no benefit besides stapling another few inches onto the ol' e-peen.

[wtl420]

@keithpickering totally fine with having those 3 point systems, especially if they all have different growth conditions and are used for separate things; reminds me of RTS games where you manage multiple resources to accomplish different goals. Feels like it could fit right in.

I definitely think levels should be all about diminishing returns but just grow. Maybe we could tie levels to unlocking things but I don't know what that would be if we want to be fair- I don't want anything too important locked behind level progression. Maybe something simple such as # of badges you can display on your posts? Basically increase your ego score to show off more would be funny.

Mana being designed to be quick to earn and spend is absolutely the way I want to go with it, and I think we can definitely re-introduce some kind of decay concept if we have other point systems.

Currency would be fun too, I think we can keep currency out of the MVP and launch with some kind of currency / store update later that brings that all together at once. It wouldn't feel good to have currency accumulate without that figured out and I definitely don't want to worry about three economies at once for launching the first piece of this.

[FunWithDespair]

For level progression, I think something like a userbar or items like the crown are probably other options to maybe consider. We could also take the "loot box" approach on top of that kind of thing and give people a guaranteed Minus Ball every time they level up for a random profile item.

[DarkoJohnny]

The idea of there being "badge slots" that increase the more levels you gain sounds great to me. All your badges would be in your inventory and visible if one went to seek out your profile, but on the postbit you could only display one at first and that ability goes up with levels, so it's ALMOST completely vanity but there is a mild point to it, to show off even more ego. Makes sense. Also allows members to only display the badges they want to, potentially, which I like.

[DarkoJohnny]

Another idea: Thread Bounties. If a forum hasn't gotten an active enough thread in a while (2 weeks?), a Bounty pops up for that forum. If a thread is made that reaches 10 posts by at least 4 different users, the user that made the thread fully refills their Mana and gets some currency/EXP or whatever. Some form of reward, it can be adjusted when actually implemented to whatever makes sense. This rewards users for keeping a good flow of interesting threads going and keeps forums from staying too dead.