Reduce effectiveness of Combat Chinook all-in rush

[ImTimK]

Extremely lame in USA mirrors, pretty much unstoppable. Even with standard build order, CCnooks can be made at any moment. GLA also has trouble with since he has to spam Techs vs Vees.

Proposal 1

Set prerequisite to Warfactory AND Airfield. It'll slowdown the rush somewhat and it gives the enemy a better chance of adapting when he spots the Airfield.

Proposal 2

Increase price

Proposal 3

Increase buildtime

Proposal 4

Increase PDL delay.

Proposal 5

General PDL nerf where laser locked missiles are more effective at breaking through.

Proposal 6

Equalize health (350) with normal Chinook (300).

[Stubbjax]

Proposal 1 is a very visible change and I think would be an added inconsistency (only case of a unit requiring two buildings)? If you wanted to slow down the rush a bit, you could perhaps increase the build time from 25s to 30s. But even then, that doesn't address the issues in team games where it can wreak havoc on USAs even if they explicitly prepare for it.

I think the problem is the PDL and/or health more than anything. USA is basically required to laser lock them in order to break through the PDL, and its high mobility (and health, to an extent) often just negates this entirely. Increasing the PDL delay between shots from 250ms to 500ms would probably be a better approach, as it more or less explicitly helps USAs (where it is by far the most imbalanced) and doesn't affect other match-ups as much. Perhaps equalising Combat Chinook health (350) with Chinooks (300) could be considered as well.

[xezon]

Everything boils down to PDL yes.

[ImTimK]

In USA mirrors, PDL nerf would probably help quite a bit.

The problem is still that Chinooks are very fast and can avoid Rockets easily.

GLA would still need Quads, I can't see him rely on RPGs. The problem is that GLA doesn't make Quads for fun vs USA, they suck vs Vees and he needs the max amount of Techs. In normal circumstances GLA would only make a few if he has a chance to harass AirNooks, since RPGs aren't good at this job either.

[ImTimK]

Proposal 1 is a very visible change and I think would be an added inconsistency (only case of a unit requiring two buildings)? If you wanted to slow down the rush a bit, you could perhaps increase the build time from 25s to 30s. But even then, that doesn't address the issues in team games where it can wreak havoc on USAs even if they explicitly prepare for it.

Yes, it would be a visible change, but maybe and hopefully it wouldn't get rejected immediately. I tested and you can still queue 8+ MD's, it's 15 seconds slower because the AF is built in 30s whereas the WF takes 15.

About inconsistency, the WF requirement for an unit that's produced from a Supply Center is already odd? It can't be compared to anything really, but it would make sense to require an Airfield to fly with combat units wouldn't? Just an airfield would be a buff money wise though, can make 2 CCNooks then (which is already possible if you sell WF).

When I came up with the idea I really liked the predictability aspect of it, where the enemy has the chance to adapt if he scans/spots the Airfield.

I was also thinking about producing CCNooks from Airfields but keeping the WF prerequisite. Effectively it's the same thing, although even more visible. This one is more likely to get rejected.

[RisingZH]

I think reducing the pdl to the same as a normal afg chinook is the cleanest and best fix.

[ImTimK]

Besides of what I mentioned, there are more reasons why PDL doesn't solve all problems. In 2v2 or other teamgames laming is possible in many more ways, for example Air + Tank/Nuke is unbeatable for many factions when they go CCNook + Dragon/BM spam. Unfortunately my proposals probably won't help that much either, although a bit more potentially.

[Stubbjax]

Yes, it would be a visible change, but maybe and hopefully it wouldn't get rejected immediately. I quickly tested and you can still queue 8+ MD's. The time at which the CCnook spawns is around 1:45, 15 seconds slower than normally (AF 30sec vs WF 15sec. First Dozer builds power>Supply>AF, 2nd Dozer Rax>WF). An all-in Vee rush is also a bit under 2 minutes I believe. Not at home to test all exact timings now.

How much counterplay potential could USA acquire with the extra 15 seconds? I can't imagine much. Perhaps Laser / SWG could get a Patriot up, though an accompanying Chinook or strategical killing of the power would likely cancel that out anyway. The PDL is really the limiting factor.

About inconsistency, like the WF requirement for an unit that is produced from a Supply Center is already odd? It can't be compared to anything really, but it would make sense to require an Airfield to fly with combat units no? Just an airfield would be a buff money wise though, can make 2 CCNooks then.

That is certainly true, but it is a pre-existing inconsistency that players are already familiar with and is still preferable to an introduced one. The airfield may not make as much sense because Combat Chinooks are technically collection units, and Chinooks don't require an airfield.

When I came up with the idea I really liked the predictability aspect of it, where the enemy has the chance to adapt if he scans/spots the Airfield.

While it may help, I feel like they are already pretty easy to spot (and if you can see it, you are likely USA and it's reasonable to expect). Typically as soon as you see 5+ MDs with a War Factory going up, you know what's about to go down. Not only that, but there are not a lot of ways for USA to capitalise on that prediction any more than they would with the opponent opting for Humvees.

I was also thinking about producing CCNooks from Airfields but keeping the WF prerequisite. Effectively it's the same thing, although even more visible. This one is more likely to get rejected.

I've thought about this too, but it would be a little weird, especially when they are collection units by default and normal Chinooks can't be produced there. Like would they try to start collecting when produced? Why can't normal Chinooks be produced there? Regardless, would definitely be too big of a change.

I think reducing the pdl to the same as a normal afg chinook is the cleanest and best fix.

Funny about that - they're both the same!

[ImTimK]

Typically as soon as you see 5+ MDs with a War Factory going up, you know what's YOU'RE about to go down.

True and edited your quote a little bit haha.

Though this wouldn't include transitions later on, where AFG evacs his Vees to load up CCNooks. Very powerful move.

Funny about that - they're both the same!

Wanted to say that, but wasn't 100% positive. Nerfing both slightly would probably be fair, although could potentially change Airmirrors where 2 Nooks together can't cover each other vs 1 Rap.

[Stubbjax]

Typically as soon as you see 5+ MDs with a War Factory going up, you know ~what's~ YOU'RE about to go down.

True and edited your quote a little bit haha.

That's what I was trying to imply. 😄

Wanted to say that, but wasn't 100% positive. Nerfing both slightly would probably be fair, although could potentially change Airmirrors where 2 Nooks together can't cover each other vs 1 Rap.

It could be an idea to simultaneously apply a JET_MISSILES modifier to ChinookArmor, e.g. JET_MISSILES = 80% to offset the additional vulnerability.

[ImTimK]

It could be an idea to simultaneously apply a JET_MISSILES modifier to ChinookArmor, e.g. JET_MISSILES = 80% to offset the additional vulnerability.

Ohhh that could maybe work, if 2 PDL could block enough missiles so that the targeted nook survives with non-critical health.

Another idea is make it so that 1 Rap can't fully kill a Nook without LaserGuidedMissile Upgrade. Without it would damage the Nook to critical levels. Adds a bit of depth and more value to the upgrade.

The second idea could look like this: 1 Rap vs 1 Nook = critical HP 1 Rap vs 2 Nooks = non-critical HP 1 LGM Rap vs 1 Nook = kill 2 Raps vs 2 Nooks = kill 1 Nook or 2 critically damaged. 2 LGM Raps vs 2 Nooks = kill both Nooks.

[RisingZH]

Oh shit, thought cnooks had the super raptor pdl.

[Stubbjax]

Another idea is make it so that 1 Rap can't fully kill a Nook without LaserGuidedMissile Upgrade. Without it would damage the Nook to critical levels. Adds a bit of depth and more value to the upgrade.

As wonderful as that would be (assuming you're including King Raptors vs non-AFG Chinooks), it would be an incredibly visible and impactful change that'd deviate too far from 1.04 and be sure to upset a lot of players.

[ImTimK]

Not including vNooks no, such change could improve balance of USAs vs AFG and I tried to think about such model, but can't come up with something sensible. If a vNook can survive, then damage vs AirNooks would be nerfed alot, whereas my idea is still somewhat subtle, you just need LGM to restore normal performance.

Though I agree with you it probably still would deviate too far, but it'd be interesting to test and maybe people actually like it.

[MTKing4]

Make CCnook Requiring one of these:

1. Airfield Built
2. Strategy Center Built

I lean more towards 2. Because that will solve all that lame early rush that Air conquers all armies with, and gives a chance for all armies in mid game, where most armies have already transitioned to/have enough of quads, gats and avengers.

PDL changes can be coupled with that as well sure, but that is another topic imo, our intention here is to prevent that early lame rush, and i think my proposal does just that.

[Stubbjax]

The goal shouldn't be to remove strategies / fundamentally change gameplay; it should be to reduce the severity of the respective strategies and provide opponents with improved counterplay options.

[MTKing4]

You can still go fast strat center, which will work but will be severely delayed, not totally useless though, it could still catch you off guard

[Jundiyy]

Changing the prerequisites should be a no, it's an obvious change to what players are used to.

My thoughts, a small tweak on a few things.

1. Price
2. Build Time
3. PDL

Price raised to $1500. Could do more but would feel unnatural for players, we saw this when we tested in 1.04+

Build Time increased to 30s

PDL, I don't know the exact number but a small tweak should help make a difference, we don't want to overdo it so that a single MD can now take out a Combat Chinook.

[ImTimK]

Albeit probably the most balanced, moving the prerequisite to Strat is a little too radical. Rush wouldn't be possible at all then because the enemy will be in your base with 50 units and be building a CC there if you don't produce any other units.

It'd be just a transition unit then.

[ImTimK]

Build Time of 30s and price of 1350 would perhaps be fair, that's 950 + 400 for the Bunker, same as Bunkerlix.

[ImTimK]

Here the timings including the AF+WF prerequisite idea:

All-in type	Time to load up + time to reach enemy
Combat Chinook Rush 1.04	1:28 + 10-20s
Combat Chinook Rush AF+WF:	1:43 + 10-20s
Dual RockVee+Ambo Rush 1.04	1:37 + 20-40s

Again, build order can be done like normally, you can queue up 8+ MD's, that is if the Nook prices were to stay the same.

15 seconds slower might not sound significant, but it can be, the enemy can build 2 extra units in that time potentially.

Replays.zip

[Stubbjax]

As a start, I'd propose $1400 + 30s + 500ms PDL.

$1400 from $1200 because it is not too noticeable and is a standardised price that applies to various vehicles and aircraft (Troop Crawler, Raptor, MiG, Tomahawk). I'd suggest many players wouldn't even recall whether it costs $1200 or $1400 in 1.04. (Whether Air Force Chinooks should be raised from $950 to $1200 may also need future consideration.)

30 seconds from 25 seconds because it is a nice round number and a 20% increase would not be too noticeable. It is already quite a long build time - only Jarmen Kell would take longer (40 seconds).

500ms PDL from 250ms PDL because it directly targets USA match-ups, is quite subtle and perfectly aligns with typical missile infantry fire rates of 1000ms - it would cancel out one laser-lock (500ms) and two of any standard missile infantry. This change should really be applied to standard Chinooks as well. Even 500ms is still an incredible benefit over other factions, particularly as no one else has such an advantage for their supply collectors, let alone cost advantage.

Whether JET_MISSILES damage or health modifications are required can be future considerations. Changing prerequisites changes the gameplay too much, and would be immediately obvious to any player.

[Jundiyy]

If we change the PDL, I would like to balance out the Jet Missiles vs both types of Chinooks, at least them units play out the same in Air mirrors.

(Although, it does mean that slower PDLs would mean less protection for your buildings from KRs.)

Wouldn't 500 be quite noticeable of a change? If not, we can go for it. Currently at 250, you'd need 4 MDs if all shot individually, although I think 3 work as well if you get the lock at the same time. Maybe have a middle ground so it takes 3 even if they hit separately? Like 375 or 400.

[ReLaX82]

We have do many good ideas here, but which shall we implement as first try? Who decides?