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TheSuperHackers / GeneralsGamePatch

Community Patch to fix and improve original Generals Zero Hour 1.04
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GLA Hijacker requires General Promotion and Palace and is never used #644

Open xezon opened 2 years ago

xezon commented 2 years ago

GLA Hijacker requires

GLA Stealth Hijacker has none of these requirements (other than the Barracks).

GLA Hijacker also is not stealthed while walking, unlike GLA Stealth Hijacker. It is stealthed when immobile.

It is much more difficult to steal vehicles in late game than early game.

As a result, GLA Hijacker is practically never used. Should anything change?

Proposal 1

Make GLA Hijacker stealth when idle and moving, but reveal it when moving close to enemy vehicles.

Proposal 2

Remove the Palace requirement.

Proposal 3

Replace Palace requirement with Arms Dealer requirement.

Proposal 4

Remove the Rank 3 unlock requirement.

Proposal 5

Move the Rank 3 unlock requirement to Rank 1.

Proposal 6

Replace Rank 3 unlock requirement with Rank 1 Hijacker stealth upgrade.

Proposal 7

Replace Rank 3 unlock requirement with Rank 3 Hijacker stealth upgrade.

Proposal 8

Add camo upgrade to Palace that makes Hijackers stealthed when moving.

Proposal 9

Decrease Hijacker build time.

Proposal 10

Hijacker does not inherit veterancy of stolen vehicle.

ReLaX82 commented 2 years ago

Atm its pure nonsense, we need to change several things to make it useful, same as the sentry drone. If the change log shall be small, dont change, if there is wider acceptance, it dont need palace or gen points from my prospective.

ZekeDlyoung commented 2 years ago

I am in favor of reducing their prerequisites, how much would depend on what time in a match would you want to see them more used (early or late game).

Regarding the stealth while moving, perhaps for regular Hijackers we can do something similar with ROTR, make them stealth while moving, but they still reveal themselves when they get within a certain distance of enemy vehicles. This would make it easier to maneuver them while retaining the ability for the opposing player to react, and keep stealth gen's hacker being slightly more special (perma stealth).

Stubbjax commented 2 years ago

I am in favor of reducing their prerequisites, how much would depend on what time in a match would you want to see them more used (early or late game).

Regarding the stealth while moving, perhaps for regular Hijackers we can do something similar with ROTR, make them stealth while moving, but they still reveal themselves when they get within a certain distance of enemy vehicles. This would make it easier to maneuver them while retaining the ability for the opposing player to react, and keep stealth gen's hacker being slightly more special (perma stealth).

I really like this idea. I never considered it as a possibility, but it makes sense seeing as this is how Bomb Trucks behave. It would be quite interesting to see the how the additional counterplay potential would affect the game if this behaviour was applied to the stealth variant as well.

Jundiyy commented 2 years ago

Whilst I don't prefer to change any of the locked units, the only one I can think of which could be is this one. We did decrease the build time but I suppose due to Palace lock and GP lock it was still not used. I don't want to fiddle around too much, I'd prefer to give it a faster build time than 1.04 with only removing Palace lock. Don't really like the idea of changing it's 'stealthy-ness'. It's already a cheap unit, so if it is trained faster and doesn't need a Palace, it would be okay-ish to use (wouldn't be brilliant but it gets it somewhere).

MTKing4 commented 2 years ago

I am in favor of reducing their prerequisites, how much would depend on what time in a match would you want to see them more used (early or late game).

Regarding the stealth while moving, perhaps for regular Hijackers we can do something similar with ROTR, make them stealth while moving, but they still reveal themselves when they get within a certain distance of enemy vehicles. This would make it easier to maneuver them while retaining the ability for the opposing player to react, and keep stealth gen's hacker being slightly more special (perma stealth).

Best approach i found

xezon commented 2 years ago

I am very much in favor of reduing the prerequisites. It's just too much and they are never used because of that alone.

DoMiNaToRuk2 commented 2 years ago

Does bomb truck really reveal itself when next to regular units that don’t detect stealth?

GLA army is quite finely balanced already, if it gets good hijacker too, then becomes more OP vs like nuke and tank in which case you need more balance changes and once again making changes for no reason.

Is it good to just remove it from gla entirely or leave it like it is. Not everything has to be used I guess.

Something valve tried to do in csgo was make very gun usable. The community went mental and said not every gun has to be used

xezon commented 2 years ago

GLA Hijacker is likely valuable at early game only. Considering it is not stealth while walking, it is already much weaker than Stealth Hijacker. I suggest to test gameplay impact with GLA Palace requirement removed and General Promotion moved to Level 1.

ImTimK commented 2 years ago

I had a couple of ideas, all based on the fact that Hijackers are indeed most useful early game, but that’s exactly the reason why GLA shouldn’t get buffed too much or at all early game.

Later they are also useful to steal dozers (usually done with bike), depending on the gametype.

  1. Available late with $ upgrade, no science:

    • Remove promotion requirement.
    • Keep palace requirement.
    • Camo upgrade from palace makes them Always Stealth.

  2. Available late, early science for upgrade:

    • Keep palace requirement.
    • Remove science and replace with Always Stealth ability (lvl 1).

  3. Available early with science, $ upgraded later:

    • Keep promotion requirement but move to level 1.
    • Remove palace requirement > wf.
    • Camo upgrade from palace makes them Always Stealth.

  4. Available early, lvl 3 science for upgrade:

    • Remove palace requirement > wf.
    • Replace promotion with always stealth ability (lvl 3).
ReLaX82 commented 2 years ago

Stealthing them is a massive boost and forces the enemy to build anti-stealth which weakenes them. I would go with Xezon here. LVL 1 and WF required. Unstealthed its still only usable if you cant kill it fast with Gatts or similar.

statesman01 commented 2 years ago

Here's mine. Lower hijacker cooldown, make it invisible.

ZekeDlyoung commented 2 years ago

Here's mine. Lower hijacker cooldown, make it invisible.

What do you mean by cooldown?

statesman01 commented 2 years ago

Here's mine. Lower hijacker cooldown, make it invisible.

What do you mean by cooldown?

Build Time.

penfriendz commented 2 years ago

The problem with hijacker is that it's garbage design with the current meta. It's useless vs USA with abundant detection (scans, spy drones and vehicle spy drones, pathfinders...), not to mention most USA vehicles are humvees which counter hijackers.. and are also usually full, which means hijackers can't even hijack them. They're also pretty bad vs gla with most gla vehicles being such low value individually that building hijackers is often more a liability than not. They're only useful against China, which has the highest value and slowest units so e.g. a gatt overlord can't turn quick enough to stop a hijack tech.

Fixing this properly would require a massive rework and anything else would make them way too strong (mainly vs china) or still basically useless.

penfriendz commented 2 years ago

Btw, I've often thought that hijackers shouldn't be able to hijack elite or heroic units (as stated in the manual) and at least shouldn't keep any veterancy of the vehicle they hijack. The way they level up should imo be with USA vehicles only.

MTKing4 commented 2 years ago

a gatt overlord can't turn quick enough to stop a hijack tech.

A gat overlord is what counters hijackers, the built in Gatling cannon move independentally from the main turret and it detects stealth, usually hijackers steal other overlords and will be scared away by a gat overlord

ImTimK commented 2 years ago

The problem with hijacker is that it's garbage design with the current meta. It's useless vs USA with abundant detection (scans, spy drones and vehicle spy drones, pathfinders...), not to mention most USA vehicles are humvees which counter hijackers.. and are also usually full, which means hijackers can't even hijack them. They're also pretty bad vs gla with most gla vehicles being such low value individually that building hijackers is often more a liability than not. They're only useful against China, which has the highest value and slowest units so e.g. a gatt overlord can't turn quick enough to stop a hijack tech.

Fixing this properly would require a massive rework and anything else would make them way too strong (mainly vs china) or still basically useless.

Stealth’s hijackers are in a pretty good spot in current meta I would say. Yes, vs USA the only valuable target Dozers but it’s gamechanging, much increasing Stealth’s chance to win.

vs China they can be absolutely gamechanging aswell when jacking a Dragon that rolls out of the factory, experts are often prepared for this early game and get stealth detection, but chances vs less suspecting players are pretty high.

In GLA mirrors and they can change big engagements, just capturing 1 tank in the back of an army where other units turn around to shoot it, can lead to the whole army falling apart.

Midgame vs China this can happen aswell but to lesser extent since it has Stealth detection in most cases in these scenarios. And ofcourse indeed the famous Tech Jack vs Overlords.

xezon commented 2 years ago

10 proposals added.

ImTimK commented 2 years ago

I think we should go either 2 routes to improve accessibility:

(BTW, what does proposal 2 mean, available straight from Rax like Stealth?)

Besides better accessibility, vHijacker doesn't need to be more effective?

commy2 commented 2 years ago

Hijacker has nothing to do with Camouflage upgrade, which is only for Rebels and Bikes with Rebel riders.

Jundiyy commented 2 years ago

Same, don't think Hijacker should get stealth.

My thoughts. AD requirement with GP (prob level 1 since they aren't that good at rank 3). Or Rax requirement with level 1 GP.

Build time could be reduced a bit if needed. Prob okay how it is.

I don't think we need to overpower the unit or even make it as good as a standard unit, edit enough so that it can be useful, even if it's just for early game or super late no eco game. GLA is already powerful. I suppose you could always do Hijacker on a bike or Tech with Hijacker any time during the game to steal a Dozer.

ImTimK commented 2 years ago

Hijacker has nothing to do with Camouflage upgrade, which is only for Rebels and Bikes with Rebel riders.

Uhm seems you did read the proposal before this comment lol

ImTimK commented 2 years ago

Same, don't think Hijacker should get stealth.

My thoughts. AD requirement with GP (prob level 1 since they aren't that good at rank 3). Or Rax requirement with level 1 GP.

Build time could be reduced a bit if needed. Prob okay how it is.

I don't think we need to overpower the unit or even make it as good as a standard unit, edit enough so that it can be useful, even if it's just for early game or super late no eco game. GLA is already powerful. I suppose you could always do Hijacker on a bike or Tech with Hijacker any time during the game to steal a Dozer.

Build time and cost actually seem fine, it's just that they're inaccessible and useless, might only work vs a bunch of Battlemasters that have no Gat support whatsoever. Even vs Tox Scorps they probably die in most cases. Sneaking into bases is impossible.

Jundiyy commented 2 years ago

Well that was my point, it would just be used early game and late no eco game, but not an all round unit, which I think is fine, we don't need it to become that, just useful, you'd have to keep the Hijacker out on the path beforehand, and as a single unit comes close, you hijack it. And in situations where there are no anti inf units, you can always scare the enemy away as they can see the Hijacker whilst he chases after them. These few points seem enough for me.

ImTimK commented 2 years ago

Ok so you're down to make accessibility better, but not it's actual effectiveness. Fair enough.

MTKing4 commented 2 years ago

Agree with jundiyy here, i think lvl1 GP with either rax or AD requirement, (AD if rax requirement becomes too good) and use it like a demo trap, just put it in front of tunnel beforehand, it'll stealth until an enemy unit is close enough to grab,

Also cost is fine, it's already cheaper than the stealth counterpart with $400

commy2 commented 2 years ago

Stealth Hijacker: $600, 30 seconds vGLA Hijacker $400, 20 seconds, Palace + Science

ImTimK commented 2 years ago

Actually non-stealthed hackers could potentially be used pretty effectively to steal dozers when dropped off from a Tech.

With early access and low Price/BT it might become too much of a thing (also in FFA/2v2v2 for example).

However it could be seen as a poor Dozer protection, because there are plenty of options like mines, boxing, keeping it near units or base defenses etc.

ImTimK commented 1 year ago

I think the following combination of proposals would be balanced:

Surely better than original, I can't think of any reason why this would be overpowered, can you?

xezon commented 1 year ago

Move GP to level 1

I like

Requirement to Arms Dealer

Is better, but I would like just Barracks required for consistency sake and ease of access early. I think there is no other infantry unit that requires War Factory, or is there?

Camouflage Upgrade

Would be cool.

Nerf price/BT from $400/10s to $600/15s (same as Stealth)

Makes sense.

ImTimK commented 1 year ago

Is better, but I would like just Barracks required for consistency sake and ease of access early. I think there is no other infantry unit that requires War Factory, or is there?

I thought the Vanilla Saboteur was aswell?

commy2 commented 1 year ago

I thought the Vanilla Saboteur was aswell?

Correct. Same for Stealthgen Saboteur. There is also the Combat Chinook.

commy2 commented 1 year ago

Move GP to level 1, Requirement to Arms Dealer.

👍

Camouflage Upgrade ($2K/60s from Palace) makes them stealth while moving (perhaps should still reveal when close to vehicles?).

Eh, sounds too convoluted. I don't think it is necessary with the other buffs. Probably difficult to implement too.

Nerf price/BT from $400/10s to $600/15s (same as Stealth).

Build-time going from 20 seconds to 30 could slow down Tech dropping these to take Dozers, so sounds reasonable. 👍

MTKing4 commented 1 year ago
  • Move GP to level 1.
  • Requirement to Arms Dealer.
  • Camouflage Upgrade ($2K/60s from Palace) makes them stealth while moving (perhaps should still reveal when close to vehicles?).
  • Nerf price/BT from $400/10s to $600/15s (same as Stealth).

I think stealth while stationary will give saboteur a new usecase, just put stationary in front line, he'll take a dragon or something that comes by, like a demo trap

I think having an upgrade will negate point 2, because you will still need a palace (camouflage upgrade) to make it useful when it's more expensive and slower to build, that's why i rejected those two ideas