Radio Music not always powering on.

razvan-fuzz commented 8 years ago

So, I built my module almost half a year ago. It worked from the very beginning and never had any problems. I first used it with uZeus Power, then with power from a Doepfer DIY kit, general power needs are way below maximum available. Since I moved the module to the Doepfer rack it sometimes doesn't start from the get go. If I reset the power it usually starts immediately and works perfectly until I power off the system. Sometimes it starts without this trick, other times it doesn't.

Any idea why this could be? It's the only module in my rack that behaves like this though it's not the only one based on a MCU (don't know if this is relevant).

Thonk-Steve commented 8 years ago

Is it reliable if you don't put the SD card in until immediately after you power on? On 23 Jun 2016 18:52, "zanscath" notifications@github.com wrote:

So, I built my module almost half a year ago. It worked from the very beginning and never had any problems. I first used it with uZeus Power, then with power from a Doepfer DIY kit, general power needs are way below maximum available. Since I moved the module to the Doepfer rack it sometimes doesn't start from the get go. If I reset the power it usually starts immediately and works perfectly until I power off the system. Sometimes it starts without this trick, other times it doesn't.

Any idea why this could be? It's the only module in my rack that behaves like this though it's not the only one based on a MCU (don't know if this is relevant).

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razvan-fuzz commented 8 years ago

I shall try over the course of a few days and get back with an answer. I did try three times right now and it worked every time, but I wouldn't say I'm out of the woods yet because the system was just online. Will get back to you ASAP.

razvan-fuzz commented 8 years ago

Yup, seems to be a pretty reliable solution, thonk you!

kallepau commented 7 years ago

I have the same issue. The RM doesn't always start up, but generally does after a few on/off switches. ("Have you tried turning it off and on again" comes to mind).

Will try the suggested solution of putting the SD card in right after power on.

Thonk-Steve commented 7 years ago

let us know @kallepau

kallepau commented 7 years ago

Unfortunately, that didn't work. For now resorting to on/off switching.

Any other pointers for troubleshooting?

eeweegh commented 7 years ago

similar observation with a Chord Organ I just built: it started up every time (say 4-5 times) with my test power supply (a Doepfer beauty case). Then I put it next to the Radio Music in a Doepfer LC6 case (PSU3), and now both refused to power up, even after I removed cards. After two or three attempts, it worked. Radio Music resets when inserting an SD card, but Chord Organ (beta 0.5) does not, meaning I lose the settings that I prepared on the SD card (like extra wave banks).

Thonk-Steve commented 7 years ago

Anyone else using PSU3? I know there is a growing list of digital modules now which the PSU3 doesn't play nicely with, unfortunately it's getting a bit notorious.

eeweegh commented 7 years ago

Well, I've had problems running a 4ms SMR on the PSU3 5v supply (12v was ok, so not really a problem), but otherwise the power seems fine for the rest of the modules in that case. Note that I had the same startup problem when running the Radio Music on an external Doepfer PSU (the ones that come with the DIY kit). Likely linked to what other modules draw at power up.

jamescarruthers commented 7 years ago

Guessing you could test solve this by removing the power filtering e-caps

On 14 Apr 2017, at 18:27, Thonk-Steve notifications@github.com wrote:

Anyone else using PSU3? I know there is a growing list of digital modules now which the PSU3 doesn't play nicely with, unfortunately it's getting a bit notorious.

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eeweegh commented 7 years ago

Guessing you could test solve this by removing the power filtering e-caps

Not at home in electronics, but they must be there for a reason, no?

jamescarruthers commented 7 years ago

Power filtering - but it would work without them. The issue (I think) is that every module has power filtering caps - so when you switch the power supply on there's a huge strain whilst they all charge up. Pretty sure the digital modules that aren't working are caused by the slow rising voltage.

On 14 Apr 2017, at 18:52, Erik Wybouw notifications@github.com wrote:

Guessing you could test solve this by removing the power filtering e-caps

Not at home in electronics, but they must be there for a reason, no?

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eeweegh commented 7 years ago

Thank you, I understand. Maybe that's the reason why it works after a few attempts, when the caps are still partially charged? I'll see if I can reasonably work around the problem (move some modules around, bring up the 6U case in two phases), but only attempt to remove the caps when I get really desperate (don't really want to run into other stability problems).

eeweegh commented 7 years ago

while reading up on Teensy, I found out there's a reset pin (hidden as a pad on the back of the board). Does anybody have some suggestions about adding a momentary switch (to ground, I presume)? It sounds to me that it would allow to reset the Teensy (RM/CO) module individually after power has stabilised (which sounds more civilised than yanking a whole bus board of modules).

eeweegh commented 7 years ago

After a few hours of testing, I found out that:

emptying the rack with the PSU3 completely, except for the RM and the CO: problem is still there (cannot reliably start up the Teensy in either of them, regardless of card inserted or not). Maybe the theory of the power sucking caps still holds, but then these two modules are the only ones to blame (when filled, the case draws around 1A on 12v, .26A on -12v);
removing either of them, makes the remaining one behave as mentioned above: boots up fine without SD card;
so I ended up moving the CO to a different PSU, refilled the PSU3 rack, and everything now runs, assuming I take out the cards first (which is not really what I want on the OC, as mentioned).

Any suggestions to improve/fix this are still welcome. Adding the Teensy reset button I mentioned this morning is something I'll only venture when somebody pushes me :-)

oblivionratula commented 7 years ago

On 04/17/2017 05:05 AM, Erik Wybouw wrote:

while reading up on Teensy, I found out there's a reset pin (hidden as a pad on the back of the board). Does anybody have some suggestions about adding a momentary switch (to ground, I presume)? It sounds to me that it would allow to reset the Teensy (RM/CO) module individually after power has stabilised (which sounds more civilised than yanking a whole bus board of modules).

This thread says pulse RST to ground to reset: https://forum.pjrc.com/threads/35269-Teensy-3-2-Reset-signal

This is a crack at the hardware issue of using that pad: http://rishifranklin.blogspot.com/2014/06/teensy-31-reset-pin.html

Not sure if that's usable on a Radio Music as I'm not near mine.

-- Mark Matula http://Ratula.net

eeweegh commented 7 years ago

Thank you! The first link cleanly confirms what I cobbled together from specs and other threads. The second one, I'd also come across, and I think it is possible (at least physically) to do on my Radio Music: I mounted the teensy with the female headers, so there's plenty of space. Once I get a wire off that reset pin, it's a matter of testing, then finding a neat solution for a button (preferably in the front panel, otherwise in a blank next to it). But still hoping that somebody tells me that it's just a bad soldering or component - I just saw Steve's case for Superbooth, and it has at least 4 of them next to each other :-)

Thonk-Steve commented 7 years ago

yeah we have 4, that's the thing that is confusing, also we have sold a LOT and there are only a tiny number of people who mention this so it's very hard to track down.

Is everyone using decent SD cards? Kingston or Sandisk?

eeweegh commented 7 years ago

yup - brand new 16G sandisk in both of them.

Don't lose sleep over it - my OCD inner self wants to get this solved, but I'll find it something else to fret over :-). Just drop me a line if you come across an idea.

paulfreeman commented 5 years ago

I also have this problem, with the latest firmware and a fresh Sandisk Ultra card. I have the RM mounted in an Arturia RackBrute 6U which in addition to the RM holds a Behringer Neutron. The power on problem was happening before I put the Neutron into the case.

It does seem to just be the first time, once it 'lights' the first time, then power cycles seem to work. Makes me wonder if its the big caps as there seems to be a 'priming' effect going on.

Thonk-Steve commented 5 years ago

Paul does it boot more reliably if you leave the card out until after the case is powered on?

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019, 16:28 Paul Freeman, notifications@github.com wrote:

I also have this problem, with the latest firmware and a fresh Sandisk Ultra card. I have the RM mounted in an Arturia RackBrute 6U which in addition to the RM holds a Behringer Neutron. The power on problem was happening before I put the Neutron into the case.

It does seem to just be the first time, once it 'lights' the first time, then power cycles seem to work. Makes me wonder if its the big caps as there seems to be a 'priming' effect going on.

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paulfreeman commented 5 years ago

Card in or out doesn't make any difference. Its not a big issue, but thought it worth reporting in case there's some way to fix it.

NicolasRuaud commented 5 years ago

Hi ,I built a RM last week and i have the same issue. RM never lights up at first boot (always at second or third time). Card in or out (fresh sandisk extreme 32Go) doesn't make any difference too. Alim is a doepfer PSU3. I checked all resistors values, all diodes and soldered points, all seems to be OK. Does anybody try adding a WMD Soft Start Power Supply Delay ?

If it can help and give you some clues: I didn't cut the trace for usb alimentation, I didnt had yet the 100k resistor for the noise issue, and i choose to had female sockets to connect the tensys.

Thonk-Steve commented 5 years ago

Can you describe more what the LEDs do on power on?

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, 08:56 NicolasRuaud, notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi ,I build a RM last week and have the same issue. RM never lights up at first boot. Card in or out (fresh sandisk extreme 32Go) doesn't make any difference too. Alim is a doepfer PSU3. I check all resistor's values, all diodes and soldered points, all seems to be OK. Does anybody try adding a WMD Soft Start Power Supply Delay ?

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NicolasRuaud commented 5 years ago

At first powering on, LEDs don't lights, there is no sound, the module seems offline.

Thonk-Steve commented 5 years ago

That's not the same issue described in this thread, if you're getting no LEDs at all then potentially the Teensy isn't programmed or you have an issue with the construction, if you bought the parts or PCBs from Thonk then please email photos of both sides of both PCBs and the Teensy to support@thonk.co.uk

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, 09:16 NicolasRuaud, notifications@github.com wrote:

At first powering on, LEDs don't lights, there is no sound, the module seems offline.

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NicolasRuaud commented 5 years ago

Yes my issue is the same that the one described in this thread. My RM works perfectly but it do not always powering on. Sorry if I was missanderstood.

I was just wondering if a wmd soft start could be a workaround.

paulfreeman commented 5 years ago

I have fixed this issue on my board by re-flowing the solder on one of the electrolytic capacitors on the power input, one of them had a dry joint, after tidying that up it powers up correctly. @NicolasRuaud may be worth checking the electrolytic capacitors.

NicolasRuaud commented 5 years ago

Hi Paul, thank you for your answer, I am interressed with your solution, please can you post us a picture of your modification where we can see the soldering bridge to add?

paulfreeman commented 5 years ago

There was no bridge, I just had to correctly solder the part.

Look on the left, there is a bad solder joint. So its a good idea to check those two parts (the two 10 uf Electrolytic Capacitors, their polarity, and their soldering).

boardfix

eeweegh commented 5 years ago

FWIW, I bought a WMD Soft Start to see if it would bring any improvement (I am personally convinced it has to do with inrush current), and so far (one weekend) the combination has worked fine. Will post back in a few weeks if the solution remains stable, sooner if not :-)

NicolasRuaud commented 5 years ago

Nice, good to know Erik! I'll check my electrolytic capacitors solders, and will try with a WMD soft start too.

NicolasRuaud commented 5 years ago

FYI, I bought a WMD Soft Start and its has also solve the problem for me.

eeweegh commented 5 years ago

Confirmed after a few weeks usage, the WMD Soft Start has reliably solved my RM startup problems.

eeweegh commented 4 years ago

You might be interested in this thread: https://forum.pjrc.com/threads/56541-Teensy-3-2-not-booting. In there, Paul Stoffregen explains how a power supply issue at startup could cause a Teensy to hang, and what was done in recent Teensyduino versions to fix that. Found it by discussing with Befaco why a VCMC would sometimes fail to start, except when behind a WMD Soft Start.

head-monkey commented 4 years ago

Hi. I had the issue of Radio Music not powering up in my Doepfer LC6 case with a PSU 3. I found that if I quickly turned the power on, off and on again it would then power up with no problems. The same Radio Music is now in a rack powered by a Tiptop uZeus and powers up first time with no issues whatsoever.

jkolhi commented 3 years ago

I have fixed this issue on my board by re-flowing the solder on one of the electrolytic capacitors on the power input, one of them had a dry joint, after tidying that up it powers up correctly. @NicolasRuaud may be worth checking the electrolytic capacitors.

This solved my problem also! Thanks so much for posting this! I did get the WMD Slow start module before testing this, and it did not solve my problem. Re-flowing the soldering points to the capacitors did the trick. Without the WMD module!

AbsoluteMediaSolns commented 3 years ago

Been reluctant to chip in because I'm new to DIY having only completed five modules and with limited electronics knowledge. However I have the same issue. Radio Music works fine on my test PSU but when I install in the main case, powered by an Elby ED705, it rarely fires-up. I've reflowed the power caps but no difference so am considering the WMD soft start unless there are cheaper alternatives to Australia.

head-monkey commented 3 years ago

Been reluctant to chip in because I'm new to DIY having only completed five modules and with limited electronics knowledge. However I have the same issue. Radio Music works fine on my test PSU but when I install in the main case, powered by an Elby ED705, it rarely fires-up. I've reflowed the power caps but no difference so am considering the WMD soft start unless there are cheaper alternatives to Australia.

I can't say for anyone else but I found that the WMD Soft Start made no difference to the start up problem with my Doepfer PSU.

jkolhi commented 3 years ago

Been reluctant to chip in because I'm new to DIY having only completed five modules and with limited electronics knowledge. However I have the same issue. Radio Music works fine on my test PSU but when I install in the main case, powered by an Elby ED705, it rarely fires-up. I've reflowed the power caps but no difference so am considering the WMD soft start unless there are cheaper alternatives to Australia.

I can't say for anyone else but I found that the WMD Soft Start made no difference to the start up problem with my Doepfer PSU.

I have the same experience: I got the WMD Soft Start but I have the same problem still. I have a Meanwell PSUs.

TonTonD commented 3 years ago

I have two Radio Music's and I have been having this exact problem, but only with one of them.

I decided to swap my two SD cards over, and the problem moved over with the card. So – for me at least – the problem must be with the SD card.

Thonk-Steve commented 3 years ago

Hey,

That's interesting... What are the brands and models of the cards?

Regards

Steve Thonk

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021, 13:10 TonTonD, @.***> wrote:

I have two Radio Music's and I have been having this exact problem, but only with one of them.

I decided to swap my two SD cards over, and the problem moved over with the card. So – for me at least – the problem must be with the SD card.

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TonTonD commented 3 years ago

Hey, That's interesting... What are the brands and models of the cards? Regards Steve Thonk … On Fri, 10 Sep 2021, 13:10 TonTonD, @.***> wrote: I have two Radio Music's and I have been having this exact problem, but only with one of them. I decided to swap my two SD cards over, and the problem moved over with the card. So – for me at least – the problem must be with the SD card. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#99 (comment)>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAKXH6F6LGYO4K57OX25OWTUBHYVBANCNFSM4CHUIWFA . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub.

The one that is working perfectly in both: Gigastone 16gb micro SD HC. The one with the problem seems to be unbranded, just says "2gb micro sd-c026 taiwian" on it.

TonTonD commented 3 years ago

I've ordered a few different SD cards, so I'll try them out and see which ones make a difference.

Thonk-Steve commented 3 years ago

Ok got it thanks, worth noting though, as per the build instructions we only recommend Kingston and SanDisk cards.

Steve

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021, 13:56 TonTonD, @.***> wrote:

I've ordered a few different SD cards, so I'll try them out and see which ones make a difference.

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TonTonD commented 3 years ago

Ok, thanks. Yeah, I bought my Radio Music's second hand from eBay and these were just the SD cards in them. I'll replace with SanDisk. Thanks

teariceneptune commented 2 years ago

Hi guys, thnx for the contribution so far! I am experiencing the same problem, but am actually happy having found this thread 😅

My setup:

Chord Organ DIY Kit Rev2 (the red one)
SD card: SanDisk Ultra 32 GB
PSU: Doepfer PSU3
Digital module neighborhood: Bastl Popcorn (Sequencer)

I tested the workaround of pulling the SD card out when starting up. After ~5 attempts with a (hopefully completely uncharged system) it seems to fix the bug.

I would love to prevent or automate the workaround in the future.

That's why (@Thonk-Steve ):

(How) can the software be adjusted to maybe read the card after a certain delay?
(How) can an added capacitor at the cardholder help?

I thank you in advance! Steffen

PS: Other treads on the issue

TomWhitwell / RadioMusic

Radio Music not always powering on. #99