Expand sets to reflect Gen 8 learnsets

[MathyFurret]

Many pokemon have cooler movesets in gen 8 (even when a ton of moves got cut), we should use some of them to expand current sets or make new ones

[brawlitup99]

This topic may be a bit old but figured I could contribute. I've recently made a handful of sets based on Gen 8's current ubers metagame, using Smogon as a base. Here's the zip file containing said sets. There's most likely some work that needs to be done for these, but I figured it'd be good to push these before adding them to the repo. There's a lot of new Pokes in the folder, and some new sets/updates for old ones. Have a look and LMK what u think.

[brawlitup99]

Should prolly mention the sets in detail, huh.

New Pokemon:

• Swift Swim Ludicolo
• Support Torkoal
• Wallbreaker Crawdaunt
• Defensive Hippowdon
• Stealth Rock Rhyperior

Old Pokemon, New Sets:

• Sun Sweep Venusaur
• Sun Sweep & Scarf Charizard
• Nasty Plot Alakazam
• Stall Mewtwo
• Lead Mew
• Swords Dance Heracross
• Defensive Tyranitar
• Scarf Togekiss
• Sweep Fan Rotom
• Nasty Plot Heat Rotom

Old Pokemon Set Updates: (note: some may only have changes in EVs--these were based off of what was avail on Smogon)

• Dugtrio
• Curse Snorlax
• Wobbuffet
• Defensive Scizor
• Scarf Jirachi
• Spikes/Wall Skarmory
• Specs Kingdra

[MagpieLaboratories]

I don't want to dismiss good effort and time but we can't just directly accept most of these.

There also seems to be some minor confusion here.

PBR is still a gen 4 game (at least for now). We can't add moves like Hurricane or Heat Crash. We also can't update pokemon who have specific buffs (e.g. to base stats) that make them competitive in the future. We also can't update older moves like Growth or Knock off to work as they do in later gens.

On top of this there are a lot of strategies that can't just be ripped straight from smogon for a few reasons:

1. Matchmaker makes teams randomly. So having a set built for stall synergies with other sets just falls apart in a vacuum. This is particularly common in Ubers when it's common for hyper offense to double stack a specific role to overwhelm defensive cores, or when a stall team relies heavily on exactly 1 pokemon to carry a game.
2. A lot of these sets create cancer matches too easily. Even outside of modes like letdown, defiance, sync5050 and commitment we see this problem with sets that are still specifically altered to do damage. There's no way we can have sets designed to do nothing, particularly if that "nothing" is predicated by having another teammate set up SR.
3. The majority of games are 3v3, switching off. This is an extremely different meta from 6v6 switching on. For example: a set without sunny day designed to sweep in the sun is going to be useless too often.
4. Even if this was expanded in the future, a PBR turn can take 30+ seconds with leftovers. Animations are always turned on. This is a problem that doesnt exist on showdown where turns can take seconds or less in stall wars.
5. Some sets are just too imbalanced on top of all of this anyway. There is a reason why PBR-uber-Kyogre isn't the suggested smogon gen 4 set.
6. In general choice items are a big issue because of various issues hinted at above. It's a similar story for things like "lead" sets - a lead set only has a 1/3 chance of being first anyway.

In general - even for a specific meta like ubers which is allowed to break some rules - I am very against heavy stall. A stall based set should at least look to win specific 1v1s. There needs to be a proactive plan. If there is a big push to see stall gameplay we can consider it as an alternative mode with animations off and a different time rule - but I suspect the majority of users will be heavily against it.

One final issue is that quite a lot of these sets already exist in the ubers or ubers-doubles metagames

Some of these sets might be workable as updates or upgrades but need a more direct breakdown to understand what they add to the meta, why they avoid a lot of these problems listed here, and if they then fall into an acceptable level.

If someone is happy to do this I give it the green light on the basis that things are checked. I won't have time this month to do it myself

[brawlitup99]

Hey Wolfcal, thanks for responding! I'll clarify a few of the issues you had with the sets:

• First off, the main idea sending these out was mainly to get input and feedback on the sets. I understand they are a little problematic in some areas, and considering my knowledge (or lack thereof) about Gen 4's metagame, I figured some, if not all, would be up to snuff enough. The fact that you gave good feedback is a clear indicator that they need more work still. I didn't clarify these points enough in my reply, however. I apologize for this, and hope you understand.
• I actually forgot those two moves mentioned were Gen V! I was attempting to move around any sets with moves/abilities/items from Gens V+, but some slipped through the cracks. That is my bad, and will most likely be fixed or outright removed down the road.
• Same goes for changed moves--I assumed some moves were changed, but not drastically. I do understand there have been drastic move changes within the evolving metagame tho, and until we can edit moves that may pose an issue (there were a lot of Teleport sets from SwSh that are rendered useless in Gen IV).
• I forgot to factor in the TPP format when looking at Smogon sets. The points you make are all very valid, and in many ways invalidate a good portion of sets listed. Stalls and sweeps/scarfs were the big ones looking from the list looking at it. At the same time, again, I do believe some sets could be changed up a bit in order to make them more friendly for PBR, and could add some new flavor to the Uber division. If it's decided against, however, I completely understand, and will not hold any bearing
• As mentioned previously, some sets are simple updates to certain moves or stats, though there were probably more than I counted considering you mentioned there were a lot more than what I viewed.

I hope I addressed some of the reasoning behind the design. The main point was, of course, to add new sets that included moves and abilities to Pokemon that were available in Gen IV, though there were clearly issues with the sets.

Funny enough, I did try making sets from the Crown Tundra Dynamax rentals, but unfortunately it wouldn't be able to fit with any other metagame considering its status, and there weren't enough sets to distinguish it as its own metagame (there were ~30 Pokemon sets--very small amount). Thus, I attempted some new Uber sets.

Again, hope that clarifies things. I could try and rework some of the sets that aren't stalls, scarfs, sweeps, or specs so they could fit, but that is entirely up to you.

Thanks again for responding!

[Torq-A]

Funny enough, I did try making sets from the Crown Tundra Dynamax rentals, but unfortunately it wouldn't be able to fit with any other metagame considering its status, and there weren't enough sets to distinguish it as its own metagame (there were ~30 Pokemon sets--very small amount). Thus, I attempted some new Uber sets.

I dunno if this helps, but in my (hopefully) final moveset revision, I added two new sets to PWT that, instead of being from one trainer, are collections of single Pokémon held by notable NPCs (one is for computer partners used during raid battles, the other is used for Pokémon rivals use in contests). If you really wanted to, you could just make a PWT - Dynamax Rentals and put it there. The PWT roster is already wide enough that it won’t appear that often anyway.