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AC3 Passthrough #1069

Closed GoogleCodeExporter closed 9 years ago

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
New FW versions for PS3 includes Cinavia protection so why not to use same 
technique as for DTS fix?
What about to encapsulate AC3 to LPCM 2.0 stream as used for DTS trick so PS3 
will forward stream directly to Receiver so Cinavia will not be detected? I 
think there will be another size of padding needed because AC3 tracks are in 
most cases smaller than DTS stream.
Who has knowledge to do it? Hopefully not only Shagrath...
http://www.ps3mediaserver.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7220&view=unread#p50910
Thanks

Original issue reported on code.google.com by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 30 May 2011 at 11:50

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago

Original comment by chocol...@cpan.org on 31 May 2011 at 9:44

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Why wontfix when it is doable?
Reason for it?

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 31 May 2011 at 9:57

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
http://www.ps3mediaserver.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7220&p=34053#p34053

Original comment by chocol...@cpan.org on 31 May 2011 at 10:00

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Don't understand, sorry. If you read my post, you can't link this nothing 
declared post.
It works for DTS to avoid Cinavia because PS3 ignores this track and pass it 
directly to receiver.
Same can be done with AC3 stream, masked and encapsulated in LPCM 2.0 with some 
padding data to fill the stream.
It is doable but someone have to know how to do it, in same manner as DTS is 
done.
So please can you post an answer why "wontfix"?
Everybody know Cinavia can't be removed from stream but it can be bypassed from 
detection.
If you will say it is undoable, then working DTS is only a sci-fi? :-)
Thanks
ExSport

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 31 May 2011 at 10:42

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
[deleted comment]
GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
http://psp.cz/sqw/text/tiskt.sqw?O=4&CT=1111&CT1=0
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/European_Union_Copyright_Directiv
e
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/DMCA
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment_Ameri
ca_v._George_Hotz

Original comment by chocol...@cpan.org on 31 May 2011 at 8:46

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
[deleted comment]
GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
[deleted comment]
GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Ok, now I see what you want to say.
But you know, you have to actively break cinavia protection what is not same 
with DTS trick.
You can say every posted workaround in forum is illegal? DTS trick is illegal, 
enabling multi-output on PS3 is also illegal?
You have to actively break or override copy protection or using reverse 
ingeneering for doing it, but it is not this case.
If you want to be so strict, please delete discussion about moving time 1 hour 
forward etc. ;-)
Anyway I don't have any Cinavia protected content so it not bother me but I 
thought it should be breaking feature for PMS as I read lot of problems in 
forum with it...
And law in Czech republic says, every person has right to make a copy for 
private purposes,but it is forbidden to use it for public purposes.
You will break the law when you remove this protection from original video 
stream/dvd etc. But you will not break it because movie will stay copy 
protected.
You can't say you will break the law when you will play copy protected 
material(with cinavia) on non-cinavia devices. In this case,audio will stay 
"intact" and will be played by non-cinavia receiver...
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=45930

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 1 Jun 2011 at 5:10

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
in the name of science I tried to make an AC3AudioOutputStream based on the 
same trick than the DTS one, splitting and padding AC3 frames according to 
their size.
Problem #1: 640kb/s AC3 frames have a greater size than 2048 (the PCM frame 
size recognized by most devices), so I don't think it's possible to embed them
Problem #2: With a 448Kb track, tt's not working on my receiver (static noise)

Original comment by shagr...@gmail.com on 12 Jul 2011 at 7:27

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
[deleted comment]
GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Thanks for try:-)
Anyway it seems it should work, maybe we need some other bytewapping/conversion 
in pipe?
Should this discussion help somehow?
http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-March/108306.html
Thanks anyway!
If it will ever work I think that 640 AC3 can be easily converted to 448 and 
then encapsulated to WAV/PCM stream in realtime or manually by user.

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 12 Jul 2011 at 7:46

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Actually to have the same bitrate as a DTS-in-PCM track (1.5Mbits/s), the ac3 
frame size should be 6144 bytes (num_of_samples*4)... as the AC3 frame size is 
4096 bytes max, it fits...
thing is, it's not working better (byte swapping or not)
I even tried to embed a spdif header but with no success

Original comment by shagr...@gmail.com on 12 Jul 2011 at 9:41

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
it's pitty but anyway thanks for trying it Shagrath! :-)

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 13 Jul 2011 at 5:17

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Nothing is impossible! Keep up the good work and lets bypass this disgusting 
corporate thing. Hire the StuxNet team or something : )

Original comment by bobs...@gmail.com on 14 Jul 2011 at 10:54

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Guess what, a nice "DOLBY D" logo showed up on my receiver :p
Now onto DTS-HD :p

Original comment by shagr...@gmail.com on 15 Jul 2011 at 6:54

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
That's pretty cool!

Original comment by ph.waeber on 15 Jul 2011 at 10:03

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
I did know that if it is possible, only you can do it....And you did it!!!!
Again great work, many thanks as usual:-)

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 17 Jul 2011 at 8:53

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Thanks Shargarth for latest commit!
Should not be better to configure it on renderer level and not globally in PMS?
Maybe someone want to use it on PS3 but not for TV.
Thanks

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 19 Jul 2011 at 5:43

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Not really, it's mostly a receiver-dependent setting. But I agree the audio 
settings are less and less clear, I'll rework them

Original comment by shagr...@gmail.com on 19 Jul 2011 at 6:36

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Yes, agree.
And because that most people use receivers for specific renderer.
For example my parents, they are using PS3 with receiver but TV Panasonic 
without it and my brother Samsung TV with it.
In most cases I supose lot of people will limit it to PS3 only due to audio 
muting and not for others(Popcorn etc.) which are not Blueray players with 
"watermark" detection.
But it is up to you, I didn't think about it more deeply if there are some 
cons:-)
Thanks!!!!

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 19 Jul 2011 at 6:51

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Settings on renderer level can't be enabled in GUI so maybe it should be set 
globally there and make some keyword/parameter which can disable/enable it on 
renderer level.
More user friendly for general users(which uses GUI only) but then we should 
not forgot that we forced another settings via renderer.conf so change in GUI 
may not work:-)

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 19 Jul 2011 at 7:22

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Hi Shagrath
Some feedback from FORUM:
http://www.ps3mediaserver.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7220&hilit=cinavia&start
=100#p55640
It seems it works but only when TRANSCODING is FORCED.
More info in forum.
It is expected behavior?
Thx ExSport

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 22 Aug 2011 at 4:01

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
^^^^^^^^  I confirm that this is happening with both the official beta, and the 
latest SubJunk release.

If I force the video to transcode then the AC3 will "convert" (or whatever it 
is considered in this case) to LPCM.  But the original audio stream in the 
movie must be AC3.  

If it's AAC, PMS doesn't encode to AC3 then "convert" to LPCM.  It simply 
passes the AC3 to the PS3, which it processes as Dolby Digital, and the error 
appears.  

Not sure what any of this means, just thought I would post the results of my 
'experimenting' with this new option.

DTS audio streams continue to 'passthru' as LPCM whether I use tsMuxer, or 
MEncoder, whether I force video trancode or not.  Works as it always has.

Original comment by yase...@gmail.com on 23 Aug 2011 at 5:49

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
[deleted comment]
GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Got home again so I tested this new feature and.....50% success.
When MKV file with AC3 and DTS audio in stream is TRANSCODED, file is played on 
PS3 as PCM2.0, great!!!
But when I tried pure remuxing, it will stuck and the beginning. File started 
but stucked in 0 second, black screen, Info says it is AVC, Dolby Digital 5.1 
and all other info is missing. No file played.
When I disabled experimental feature, remuxing works as expected.
Here is log what happens when it is enabled and file remuxed=freezed:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
[New I/O server worker #1-2] INFO  21:21:21.637 Starting transcode/remux of 
Test_Sample.mkv
[New I/O server worker #1-2] DEBUG 21:21:21.638 Creating pipe 
\\.\pipe\1316892081638ffmpegvideo
[New I/O server worker #1-2] DEBUG 21:21:21.639 Creating pipe 
\\.\pipe\1316892081638videoout
[New I/O server worker #1-2] DEBUG 21:21:21.640 Creating pipe 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640ffmpeg0
[New I/O server worker #1-2] DEBUG 21:21:21.640 Creating pipe 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout0
[New I/O server worker #1-2] DEBUG 21:21:21.640 Creating pipe 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640ffmpeg1
[New I/O server worker #1-2] DEBUG 21:21:21.641 Creating pipe 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout1
[New I/O server worker #1-2] DEBUG 21:21:21.642 Creating pipe 
\\.\pipe\1316892081642tsmuxerout.ts
[Thread-1260] DEBUG 21:21:21.642 Waiting for pipe connection 
\\.\pipe\1316892081638ffmpegvideo
[Thread-1261] DEBUG 21:21:21.642 Waiting for pipe connection 
\\.\pipe\1316892081638videoout
[Thread-1264] DEBUG 21:21:21.642 Waiting for pipe connection 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640ffmpeg0
[Thread-1265] DEBUG 21:21:21.643 Waiting for pipe connection 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout0
[Thread-1268] DEBUG 21:21:21.643 Waiting for pipe connection 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640ffmpeg1
[Thread-1269] DEBUG 21:21:21.643 Waiting for pipe connection 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout1
[Thread-1271] DEBUG 21:21:21.643 Waiting for pipe connection 
\\.\pipe\1316892081642tsmuxerout.ts
[win32/mencoder.exe] DEBUG 21:21:21.742 Starting C:\Program Files (x86)\PS3 
Media Server\win32\mencoder.exe -ss 0 E:\Testing\_HD\Samples\Test_Sample.mkv 
-quiet -quiet -really-quiet -msglevel statusline=2 -ovc copy -nosound -mc 0 
-noskip -of rawvideo -o \\.\pipe\1316892081638ffmpegvideo
[win32/mencoder.exe] DEBUG 21:21:21.760 Attaching thread: win32/mencoder.exe
[win32/mencoder.exe] DEBUG 21:21:21.842 Starting C:\Program Files (x86)\PS3 
Media Server\win32\mencoder.exe -ss 0 E:\Testing\_HD\Samples\Test_Sample.mkv 
-quiet -quiet -really-quiet -msglevel statusline=2 -channels 2 -ovc copy -of 
rawaudio -mc 0.1 -noskip -oac copy -af pan=2:1:0:0:1:1:0:0:1:0.707:0.707:1:1 
-aid 0 -srate 48000 -o \\.\pipe\1316892081640ffmpeg0
[win32/mencoder.exe] DEBUG 21:21:21.850 Attaching thread: win32/mencoder.exe
[win32/mencoder.exe] DEBUG 21:21:21.892 Starting C:\Program Files (x86)\PS3 
Media Server\win32\mencoder.exe -ss 0 E:\Testing\_HD\Samples\Test_Sample.mkv 
-quiet -quiet -really-quiet -msglevel statusline=2 -channels 2 -ovc copy -of 
rawaudio -mc 0.1 -noskip -oac copy -af volume=0 -aid 1 -srate 48000 -o 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640ffmpeg1
[win32/mencoder.exe] DEBUG 21:21:21.894 Attaching thread: win32/mencoder.exe
[win32/tsMuxeR.exe] DEBUG 21:21:22.001 Starting C:\Program Files (x86)\PS3 
Media Server\win32\tsMuxeR.exe 
C:\Users\Server\AppData\Local\Temp\ps3mediaserver\pms-tsmuxer.meta 
\\.\pipe\1316892081642tsmuxerout.ts
[win32/tsMuxeR.exe] DEBUG 21:21:22.031 Reading pipe: 
\\.\pipe\1316892081642tsmuxerout.ts
[win32/tsMuxeR.exe] DEBUG 21:21:22.041 Attaching thread: win32/tsMuxeR.exe
[Thread-1260] DEBUG 21:21:22.289 Result of \\.\pipe\1316892081638ffmpegvideo : 
true
[Thread-1264] DEBUG 21:21:22.292 Result of \\.\pipe\1316892081640ffmpeg0 : true
[Thread-1268] DEBUG 21:21:22.292 Result of \\.\pipe\1316892081640ffmpeg1 : true
[Thread-1263] DEBUG 21:21:22.309 Looking for AC3 framesize
[Thread-1263] DEBUG 21:21:22.310 AC3 spdif framesize: 1792 / padding: 4344 
preamble[6]: 56
[Thread-1265] DEBUG 21:21:22.404 Forced reconnection of 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout0 with result : true
[Thread-1261] DEBUG 21:21:22.404 Forced reconnection of 
\\.\pipe\1316892081638videoout with result : true
[Thread-1265] DEBUG 21:21:22.404 Result of \\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout0 : 
true
[Thread-1261] DEBUG 21:21:22.404 Result of \\.\pipe\1316892081638videoout : true
[Thread-1269] DEBUG 21:21:22.405 Forced reconnection of 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout1 with result : true
[Thread-1269] DEBUG 21:21:22.405 Result of \\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout1 : 
true
[Thread-1271] DEBUG 21:21:22.416 Result of \\.\pipe\1316892081642tsmuxerout.ts 
: true
[Thread-1297] DEBUG 21:21:52.869 Stopping process: win32/tsMuxeR.exe
[Thread-1297] DEBUG 21:21:52.870 Stopping process: win32/mencoder.exe
[Thread-1259] DEBUG 21:21:52.870 Error :null
[Thread-1260] DEBUG 21:21:52.870 Error: null
[Thread-1265] DEBUG 21:21:52.870 Error: null
[Thread-1263] DEBUG 21:21:52.870 Error :null
[Thread-1297] DEBUG 21:21:52.870 Stopping process: win32/mencoder.exe
[Thread-1265] DEBUG 21:21:52.871 Disconnected pipe: 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout0
[Thread-1267] DEBUG 21:21:52.871 Error :null
[Thread-1261] DEBUG 21:21:52.873 Disconnected pipe: 
\\.\pipe\1316892081638videoout
[Thread-1269] DEBUG 21:21:52.873 Disconnected pipe: 
\\.\pipe\1316892081640audioout1
[Thread-1268] DEBUG 21:21:52.872 Error: null
[Thread-1297] DEBUG 21:21:52.871 Stopping process: win32/mencoder.exe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  
Many thanks Shagrath for fix
P.S.
Tried it with about 7 files and same happened so not problem of only one file 
but all I tested :-(

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 24 Sep 2011 at 7:48

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Here is a patch to solve the problems of AC3 Passthrough when remuxing.

Original comment by mario.ff...@gmail.com on 26 Sep 2011 at 7:10

Attachments:

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Can't test it now but many thanks for looking on that Mario!!
Hopefully someone will test it and send a feedback:-)

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 26 Sep 2011 at 8:32

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Adding that patch to the next SubJunk Build which I'll release today

Original comment by subjunk on 26 Sep 2011 at 9:54

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Ok, at home again so tested it and GOTO stopped working on PS3 when I enabled 
PASSTHROUGH.
If I disabled it again, GOTO feature started to work again:-(
So unusable for now

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 9 Oct 2011 at 10:51

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
I never had any problems with the GOTO function in PS3 but I'm going to confirm 
it today.

Original comment by mario.ff...@gmail.com on 9 Oct 2011 at 1:10

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Ok, maybe bug in some latest patches implemented in SubJunk build (b49) but not 
in official...
Ehm, I found why. I tested AVI files and it doesn't work with passthrough 
enabled.
But exactly same file and passthrough disabled, GOTO function started working 
again.
Tested also MKV file and it seems it works so only AVI has problems.
Also I found that it doesn't work when AC3 2.0 audio is present. PS3 then plays 
only video with no audio. So it doesn't support 2.0 encapsulation it seems.

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 9 Oct 2011 at 2:02

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
We are removing this functionality from the next release for legal reasons :)

Original comment by subjunk on 9 Oct 2011 at 8:09

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
No problem for me but from any point of view, nobody can refuse someone from 
using SPDIF specification in own programs. So OK, Cinavia should be removed due 
to legal reasons but SPDIF support is not against anything.
If Cinavia protection will use for own functionality some hacks in public 
standard, nobody can't say you can't use this standards in standard way because 
some shit protection rely on this hacked shit.
It is same like somebody will want to tell you that you can't play protected 
media on hw which doesn't support this protection so if you will buy some 
protected DVD, you can't play it on current HW at home but you have to buy new 
HW which supports this protection?:-) Ok if this DVD will be unplayable in 
other DVD players, you will be forced to buy new HW but in case you buy it as 
DVD-compatible, nobody can force you to buy new HW with logo of this protection.
It is stupid like you can't use DLNA/UPnP specs because you can theoretically 
break some HW limitations, like play unsupported MKV file on hw with no MKV 
support.
Anyway not problem for me but I don't understand how these corporations can 
manipulate with us and are trying to persuade us that we do something illegal 
when there is nothing illegal....
Sorry for long bullshit.

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 9 Oct 2011 at 9:58

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
It's not like someone can't maintain a fork with the functionality enabled if 
they want to.  The code is all there in subversion, after all, and it can't be 
retroactively removed from the history.

I'm curious to know whether there were specific legal threats made though, or 
if this is preempting a possible threat?

Original comment by ozth...@gmail.com on 10 Oct 2011 at 4:35

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Well actually we could have it removed, but I don't see a reason to. It's 
preemptive.

Original comment by subjunk on 10 Oct 2011 at 4:38

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Fair enough on the preemptive stuff.  No point destroying a good project with 
legal idiocy.

Original comment by ozth...@gmail.com on 10 Oct 2011 at 4:47

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
[deleted comment]
GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Agree that offcial build build should not have cinavia hack inside but nobody 
can't deny someone to use it eg. like plugin or use anything other like SPDIF 
support etc.
PMS should not have anything what is written like "Cinavia" but "pasthrough" is 
legal feature and can be used for any other file without cinavia protection:-)
Nobody can't say me I can't use this feature on my renderer when it is not PS3 
but e.g. Panasonic TV or any other renderer without any protection logo like 
cinavia. Howgh.

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 10 Oct 2011 at 6:24

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Preemtive because someone asked for it or only to be sure nobody will 
complain?:-)
Thanks

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 10 Oct 2011 at 6:26

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Preemptive because it's a feature that promotes illegal activity, whether it's 
called "passthrough" or "cinavia bypass" or "bucket of potatoes" :)
Personally I could take it or leave it, but several of the other developers are 
uncomfortable working on a project that has this feature.

Original comment by subjunk on 10 Oct 2011 at 6:33

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
I think you understand what I wanted to say:-)
If it will continue like that we should remove transcoding, remuxing etc. 
because someone can use it for breaking something illegal. We should shut off 
also internet because anyone can use it for something illegal. We should not 
think in this direction.
Anything is/can be in the future used for breaking something so we should not 
use it:-)
Anyway from technical and user point of view(not talking about cinavia), this 
new feature is great(when I forgot problems with AVI) because I tested it on my 
PS3 and Panasonic TV and it is like hell and heaven. I thought PS3 has good AC3 
decoders but when I streamed it untouched directly to my receiver, you will 
hear totally something different:-) So bad it is abandoned.
Ok, ending with my useless discuss:-)

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 10 Oct 2011 at 6:50

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Transcoding, remuxing and the internet are primarily used for legal things 
while this feature is primarily for an illegal thing.
You can't argue against that point, it is in the first post of this issue, the 
entire reason this issue and feature exist is to bypass Cinavia.

If Cinavia protection didn't exist, this feature wouldn't exist. That's it. 
Done.

Original comment by subjunk on 10 Oct 2011 at 7:24

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Yes, primary point was to test it if it works, proof of concept.
But for me who have not any protected files and tested this feature, I was 
amazed how it works with my receiver, that output is much better with it 
enabled.
So "If renderer == 'PS3' Passthough=false" is enough:-) This feature started to 
be hack but now it seems it has other usage, better usage, legal usage:-)
But stopping this discussion because I don't care about any protection, it is 
not my fight, but found it has big benefit also for non-protected files.
This is what I wanted to present:-)
Bye and keep up good work guys!

Original comment by ExSportCZ@gmail.com on 10 Oct 2011 at 4:10

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago

Original comment by chocol...@cpan.org on 5 Nov 2011 at 10:22

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
I am confused by the forced status of Won't Fix and maybe I don't fully 
understand how Cinavia can actually be legal.  To me it seems that it is a 
violation of fair use.

It seems that if the developers don't feel comfortable adding this feature set 
because it could be used for illegal purpose, but yet the entire feature set 
that is PMS could be used for illegal purpse.

Looks like I will be selling my PS3.

Original comment by kevin.w....@gmail.com on 15 Jan 2012 at 6:53

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
There is no legal mandate for a company to offer fair use provisions for their 
IP.  Fair use just means that if you can find a way to use it that fits within 
the narrow exceptions to copyright law then they can't prosecute you.  In 
short, Cinavia is legal because the content producers can do whatever they like 
with their own intellectual property, even if it results in more limited sales.

A "fair use" argument would go along the lines of PMS claiming that working 
around the protections in Cinavia was "fair use" for some reason but this would 
be unlikely to get past the DMCA given the language in there about not 
bypassing technical protection measures.

It's prudent for a very public project like PMS to err on the side of caution 
when it comes to upsetting large media companies.  While it's somewhat 
frustrating from a personal standpoint, the big companies tend to win by virtue 
of having more money and more lawyers.  It's neither fair nor "right" but it's 
not the right battle to pick (in my opinion).

Original comment by ozth...@gmail.com on 16 Jan 2012 at 2:06