KI kann überlaufen?/AI switching allegiance?

[Wolfram92]

191

Hi, folgendes Thema wurde in obigem Thema kurz angeschnitten.

Vielleicht wäre es möglich eine Spielmechanik einzubauen, die es einem AI-Verbündeten erlaubt seine Allianzen zu wechseln? Nehmen wir mal bspw. einfach jemand wie die Schlange. Sie ist mit dem Spieler verbündet und wird von Saladin (dem Gegner) massiv unter Druck gesetzt. Nachdem die Schlange einige Zeit mit einer halb zerstörten Burg und kaputter Wirtschaft kämpfen musste, verbündet sie sich gegen den Spieler mit Saladin. Die beiden sollen hierbei nur als Beispiel dienen.

Warum das Ganze? Würde gut zu dem Character einiger KI-Fürsten passen und außerdem wäre es auch ein Anreiz für den Spieler seine Verbündeten zu schützen und zur Hilfe zu kommen. Zum Beispiel könnte es sein, dass ein KI-Fürst dreimal Hilfe von dem Spieler anfordert, dieser nicht reagiert und dann der KI-Fürst die Seiten wechselt da er sich verraten fühlt.

Außerdem fände ich es toll, wenn die Option auch dem Spieler offen stünde, weil ich gerne schlechten Verbündeten wie dem Abt oder dem Kalif in den Rücken fallen würde^^

Darüber hinaus sollte dieser Mechanik auch eine gewisse Zufälligkeit innewohnen, so dass sie nicht zu einer berechenbaren Konstante im Spiel wird. Es würde auch beispielsweise zu einer Schlange oder Kalifen weitaus besser passen, dass sie den Spieler verraten, als zum Marshall.

Ist vermutlich sehr kompliziert einzubauen, soll auch nur eine Idee sein, die ich spontan in die Runde werfen wollte :)

English:

Maybe it's possible to implement a game mechanic which allows AI-Lords to switch their allegiance while under pressure. For example, if the Snake is the ally of the player and gets constantly wasted by Saladin, he could eventually switch sides to save his own skin. Those two are just an example.

Why though? Because it would fit some of the personalities of the AI-Lords and it would be an incentive for the player to protect and support his allies. For example, an AI-Ally request aid three times from the player and is ignored every time. Eventually he will switch sides because he feels betrayed,

A certain randomness should be inherent to the mechanic as well, so that it doesn't become a foreseeable constant. It also would fit certain Lords like the Snake or the Caliph better to betray the Player, than someone like the Marshall.

It's probably very hard to implement, but it's just supposed to be a funny idea that I want to throw in the ring :)

[Lolasik011]

Not sure what it is real. But everything can be ...

[Heroesflorian]

The concept as such is interesting for sure. How it can be implemented to work technically, and be "balanced" properly to feel like a valuable addition to the game, is however the big question, and probably has no easy answer...

[Wolfram92]

The concept as such is interesting for sure. How it can be implemented to work technically, and be "balanced" properly to feel like a valuable addition to the game, is however the big question, and probably has no easy answer...

Yes, that's for sure.

But to be honest though, I never expected that it would be possible to make the healer actually heal units, so one day maybe, who knows : D

[Sh0wdown]

I think the process of making someone change alliances is not that difficult. It's probably the conditions around it which raise problems, like when and how it should happen. Especially in connection to the player, since you should be able to decline an offer or change alliances yourself. Both those things would need menu interactions which I have not cracked yet.

[PitchNeeded]

These ideas are great, I would like to see AIs switching allegiance.

Also it could be to do with use of bad things like gallows, if you start using bad things in your castle, it could be made that a 'good AI' such as Saladin is more likely to join the enemy side but an 'evil AI' such as Wolf is more likely to join your side.

[Monsterfisch]

As mentioned in the original comment I would make the switching of allies a % chance that decreases with each time you switch/die that way switching sides by walking your lord into the enemy fire on purpose to switch sides would have a certain risk to it of not working out and you simply being dead. That way its also more of a lucky reward kind of thing when you switch sides after being defeated and you got new strong friends and a second chance ;) the feature could also just be limited to like 4 switches per match so they don't drag out too long after the other strong players get defeated etc.

[Wolfram92]

On interesting aspect is that at some point the developers of Firefly intended for such a scenario to happen I think. There are audio files of the messenger, something like "my master demands that you desist from destroying parts of his castle" (When you destroy the castle of an ally presumably) and "my master informs you of his desire to to take control of your lands", which very obviously means betrayal. So this means that there would be even audiofiles which could be used for such a purpose.

I don't know if these clips are part of the historical campaign since I didn't complete it but I've only heard them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYc_0ru_vR4

[Heroesflorian]

@Wolfram92 the quote "my master informs you of his desire to to take control of your lands" can be heard when the Wolf kills someone in a regular skirmish game (in German it is "Mein Meister hat den Wunsch, die Herrschaft über Eure Ländereien zu übernehmen. Macht Euch bereit!", despite the displayed text being different there).

For the other quote I am not completely sure where it belongs, but many AI characters have similar quotes where they complain about you destroying parts of their castle with similar wording. To me, it sounds like a regular message that is triggered when you destroy a building or tower.

---

(That moment when you just quickly wanted to check the message when Wolf kills someone, but forgot to set 40k starting gold instead of 10k...)

[Wolfram92]

@Wolfram92 the quote "my master informs you of his desire to to take control of your lands" can be heard when the Wolf kills someone in a regular skirmish game (in German it is "Mein Meister hat den Wunsch, die Herrschaft über Eure Ländereien zu übernehmen. Macht Euch bereit!", despite the displayed text being different there).

Ah ok, never heard this message in this context. So this is just the case for the Wolf, right? Does it play when the Wolf, as your opponent, kills one of the players allies? I'm gonna test it with a rat :P

To be honest, there are many messages in this youtube clip I've never heard before (like the one where he threatens you that his master will send troops to your castle), so there would be at least the possibility to repurpose some of these messages.

[Wolfram92]

So I played two Skirmish matches, one with the Wolf as my Ally and another one with the Wolf as an opponent and the Rat as my Ally and the message you referred to never popped up. When the Wolf (as my ally) killed the Rat, it was just the standart "...dispatched one of our adversaries" and when he killed the Rat (as my ally) while I was playing against him actually no message popped up at all.

Other things I learned as well:

-Getting a specific outcome in a Skirmish AI-Match was really difficult -The Wolf is so slow at the beginning that he even looses against the Rat -The Lord of the Wolf is so strong that he can kill like a 50 spearmen without dying

[Heroesflorian]

The message is probably bugged in the German localization (sound of the message in question, text of the (German version) of the same message you also got there). But I could imagine some other places throughout the game also might have wrong or buggy messages (or missing ones). Anyway, yep, some could be repurposed I guess. Also, there is an entire array of "officially" unused character messages (1 set of Crusader / Arabian messages with different voices, as if two planned/considered characters were never actually implemented, or got removed again).

[Wolfram92]

These 'official' unused messages create the impression that Firefly opened uo many threads during developement but discarded them later, perhaps due to time pressure.

This also fits in with the fact that SC1, while still being a great game, seems more like a glorified expansion or add-on, instead of a game in it's own right, with buildings being the exact same as in Stronghold, just reskinned, Arab Lords who are obviously supposed to be Muslim building Christian statues and giving out ale to their population, peasants being European while playing as an Arab, no mosques available etc.

I read that Firefly really had to rush the game and this being the reason for many things feeling incomplete. But I think having these 'leftovers' is kinda fascinating and the possibility of using them for one of their (perhaps) original functions is a really nice option.

[PitchNeeded]

Arab Lords who are obviously supposed to be Muslim building Christian statues and giving out ale to their population, peasants being European while playing as an Arab, no mosques available etc.

I would certainly like to see retextured mosques if you were playing as an Arabian lord (or at least the cross at the top of chapels, cathedrals and churches changed to a crescent).

[Wolfram92]

I would certainly like to see retextured mosques if you were playing as an Arabian lord (or at least the cross at the top of chapels, cathedrals and churches changed to a crescent).

Working on it;)

[PitchNeeded]

That looks incredible! It needs a retextured imam too instead of the priest.

And the cross statues for Arabian lords changed to ones depicting the star and crescent!

Can we change inns/ hops farms/ breweries into something else too for Arabian lords. I am not sure what to change it to though, I was going to suggest tea or coffee but I have just looked up and saw historically they didn't arrive until later to the Middle East.

Maybe the inns could be restaurants and the hops farms changed into spice farms to flavour the food and the breweries changed into cooking kitchens?

[Wolfram92]

I'll do the mosques first and then I'll try making an Imam.

Wine used to be a traditional product in the middle east but I assume Islam changed that.

The Inns could be retextured I think, but then it would need also a new resource as well.

If you have further suggestions then you should post them in the "Skin design" Thread I opened:) There I will also post my progress.

It will take me some time to do the textures but I'm still learning how to use the program to it's optimum. I am confident that I will also become faster.

[Sakdly]

أود بالتأكيد أن أرى مساجد مُعاد تشكيلها إذا كنت تلعب دور سيد عربي (أو على الأقل تحول الصليب الموجود أعلى المصليات والكاتدرائيات والكنائس إلى هلال).

أعمل عليه؛)

I need download it