Apothecaries and AI castle.

[Lolasik011]

I think need to rewrite the AIV castles. Because the apothecaries function has been added. Because not all AI Lords build Apothecaries.

[Heroesflorian]

Well, but given abothecaries need space and are expensive, I think not every AI character would necessarily profit much from adding them. Also, they are sort of an "advanced technology" building that doesn't really fit small, simple AI characters like Rat or Snake. Also, I'd say there's a lot of other features that the patch adds or changes that probably have more effect on AIVs than the healers, and the healers also may still be changed/adjusted in near future, so I'd say it is too early to adjust all AIVs with respect to healers.

[Lolasik011]

I think can try editing some AIs.

[Heroesflorian]

Sure you can edit them... but by what criteria? Before editing them, I think we should first think about what kind of changes would make sense regarding healers. Just adding additional apothecaries somewhere outside the walls feels a bit "quick and dirty", and anything else will require additional modifications in most cases.

Also, would you include the increased tower siege engine limit as well? What about the other issues that many AIVs have?

[PitchNeeded]

I was about to discuss this. Which lords do we think should have apothecaries then?

So at the minute, Emir, Wazir, Abbot and Frederick already have apothecaries in all their vanilla AIVs. Wazir has two in some of his! Sheriff and Nizar have one in only some of their AIVs.

Certainly Saladin, Lionheart, Marshall, Phillip and Sultan should have one of them I think. It would go with their personalities, but it might not go with Rat, Pig or Snake's personality as much.

Wolf and Caliph maybe should have one too, although it might not go so much with their personalities that well, as they are evil lords who wouldn't care about their troops' health too much, but I suppose if Sheriff and Wazir have them then why not Wolf and Caliph as well!

I think can try editing some AIs.

I might edit my Evrey's castles fix tomorrow, both to add more ballistas to towers because of the new higher limit and also add some apothecaries to some AI lords' castles.

[PitchNeeded]

Just adding additional apothecaries somewhere outside the walls feels a bit "quick and dirty"

I wouldn't advise putting too many apothecaries in AI castles (at least the vanilla ones), because it could drive the population too high, and lead to a reduction in ale or religion coverage or fear factor. One or two apothecaries in total in an AI castle should be fine I think!

[PitchNeeded]

Actually one of Emir's bigger castles no longer has an apothecary with Evrey's fixed vanilla castles, just tested it now. He must have replaced it with the additional houses before the healers became so important with the patch :D.

[Lolasik011]

I'll wait for your castles :) @PitchNeeded

[PitchNeeded]

OK I will do it very soon and it will be ready for the next patch!

Just watched a match between Emir and Wazir to watch the healers in action, Wazir actually has THREE apothecaries in one of his castles, so that's going to be a big boost to him now, with the healers now he can get everyone back to full health between sieges. Also, Wazir's troops are expensive so it will be good for his economy not having to replace as many of them.

Also I saw one of Wazir's healers healing a chicken! :D

[EchoRevora]

Not sure if every AI should build apothecaries now.. why not leave it as it is? It makes those few characters that already have apothecaries more special. Lionheart and Saladin are already pretty strong; should they really be stronger? Not every AI uses religion, not every AI produces beer. Why should most of the strong AI's get apothecaries now? Surely it might fit their character, on the other hand it would make a lot of sense and fit character to give the Lionheart crossbowmen instead of archers. But firefly decided not to, and everyone got used to it. Just like they made their decision on which AI builds apothecaries.

I always found it interesting that only 4 characters build apothecaries, now that they're actually more useful I think they should stay the only AI's to use them.

[ByBurton]

Wolf should build at least one. He is a tank ai, and even though it does not suit his personality too much, it would give him a large boost to his defense.

[Monsterfisch]

I wasn't aware the wolf needed a stronger defense ;)

Why don't you create your own aiv files to test it out?

[J0J0Jo]

I don't know if the Wolf needs to be even stronger on defense. If we are adding apothecaries to any lord, imo it should be Saladin. He is supposed to be the arabian tank, but obviously has no crossbow-men and isn't as strong defensively as the Wolf. Apothecaries would at least mean that his archers on his towers can be healed, buffing him a little in defense. Additionally, it really fits his character. As a kind and intelligent lord it fits perfectly.

[PitchNeeded]

Well at the very least I think I think Sultan certainly should have one, it fits with his personality of caring about his troops and would look great in his circular castle along with the gardens (and goodness knows Sultan needs all the boost he can get) and Saladin, Phillip and Lionheart are kings who would have almost certainly had the service of healers historically, so they should have at least one I think, maybe two for their bigger castles.

Actually one of Emir's bigger castles no longer has an apothecary with Evrey's fixed vanilla castles, just tested it now. He must have replaced it with the additional houses before the healers became so important with the patch :D.

@Evrey Just looked at the AIVs on the editor and it's Emir2 that no longer has the apothecary in your fixed vanilla castles, it would be good if that was fixed for the next patch! :D

[PitchNeeded]

So here's the list of AI lords that I shall add them to in a new version of Evrey's vanilla castles that will be ready for the next patch

Wolf (only one though). In the Stronghold lore, he himself of course got healed after he got injured in Stronghold 1 so that justifies him having a healer I think. Sultan (I really think a healer would go with his personality) Marshall (he is an advisor in SH1 and so would definitely have some wise ideas such as using a healer). Phillip, Lionheart, Saladin - they are kings after all so would have almost certainly had the services of a healer historically.

I will also make sure Emir, Wazir, Abbot, Frederick, Nizar and Sheriff have one in all their AIVs, although it might be hard for Sheriff because of his style of castle.

Not sure about whether to add one to Caliph's castle but I probably will unless there are any objections here :D . It might not go with his personality much having one (but the same could be said for Wazir and Sheriff) , but his defensive troops such as Arabian archers and fire throwers are expensive to replace and we all know Caliph doesn't have the best economy so having a healer could really help him.

[PitchNeeded]

I don't know where to put the healers in the building order for AIVs though. Would it be OK putting in it last (but before the pitch ditch is created for AIs that use pitch)?

[Monsterfisch]

You probably want to have them be built early as some ais have a hard time replenishing defending units so with the healer those units will be kept alive longer.

[PitchNeeded]

OK but not so early in bread making AIs, getting their mills and a few bakeries up first is more important!

I will look and see where Firefly have put the healer in the building order too for those vanilla AIVs that have one.

[Evrey]

@PitchNeeded Hi there!

• \@mentions do not seem to work unless one is already part of a conversation. I just stumbled upon this topic by accident.
• By accident, a few of my Wazirs still have apothecaries. All others are intentionally gone.
• I will not change my mods for new features (not what I consider to be fixes) added by this patch for two reasons:
  1. Not every user of my mods also uses this patch, and in that case apothecaries are a waste of space, workers, and money.
  2. This patch tool does not officially support Linux, so I don't support it. Am a Linux gamer.

[PitchNeeded]

@Evrey I am confused by what you say about 'a few of my Wazirs still have apothecaries. All others are intentionally gone'. I am using your fix and all Wazir AIVs seem to have apothecaries.

If you are mistakenly referring to Emir rather than Wazir, yes one of your fixed vanilla AIVs for his castles no longer has an apothecary (to make way for houses), the rest do.

I will not change my mods for new features (not what I consider to be fixes) added by this patch for two reasons: Not every user of my mods also uses this patch, and in that case apothecaries are a waste of space, workers, and money. This patch tool does not officially support Linux, so I don't support it. Am a Linux gamer.

Yep and I agree there should be an option to just have your fixed AIVs without additional apothecaries, some players would just want the 6 AIs that currently have them to have one.

Anyway I am doing my edited version of the fixed vanilla AIVs with apothecaries for more AI lords at the minute.

[Evrey]

I am using your fix

Oh, the fixed vanillas. Totally forgot that they exist.

and I agree there should be an option to just have your fixed AIVs without additional apothecaries

This patch tool can do what it wants to, have more options or not. I'm just not going to change my master repo, which in turn means that derived work might fall out of sync whenever I update stuff.

[PitchNeeded]

I'll wait for your castles :) @PitchNeeded

@Lolasik011 I have completed all of Wolf and Sultan's AIVs so far :D Wolf's vanilla AIVs were hard to edit and to find space for an apothecary, some houses and bad things had to be moved. Hopefully I will get another 2 or 3 AIs done tomorrow!

[ByBurton]

I'll wait for your castles :) @PitchNeeded

@Lolasik011 I have completed all of Wolf and Sultan's AIVs so far :D Wolf's vanilla AIVs were hard to edit and to find space for an apothecary, some houses and bad things had to be moved. Hopefully I will get another 2 or 3 AIs done tomorrow!

I don't like the idea of removing stuff. You should try testing it. And don't mess up the original build order.

[Heroesflorian]

He did say moved, not removed, though.

[PitchNeeded]

@ByBurton I understand your concerns but I am a very careful AIV editor (which is why it is taking me a while to do this) :D And I am testing them too to make sure there are no bugs like AI buildings being built and deleted repeatedly in-game.

If I do have to move (NOT remove :D) a few of Wolf's bad things or a house (and I am doing this only if completely necessary for the placement of an apothecary in a suitable location that a. isn't too far from the castle or b. is in the middle of an AI's pitch ditch) , I make sure the things I have moved are put back having the same build stage as originally and that they are placed in suitable locations. For many AIVs though nothing will need to be moved (Lionheart for example I can just put one or two in spaces around the sides of his castle.

I have only moved houses (some of which are Evrey's added houses anyway as I am working from his AI vanilla fix) and good/bad things if I have had to make room for an apothecary, never any other buildings.

Update: I am also responding in different ways to different castle designs: eg. Nizar will have a total of only one apothecary in most of his castles but for the one with the really long pathway into his castle I gave him two in total because his economy isn't as good in that one and having two healers will allow him to heal more of his troops in that castle that become injured meaning less cost in replacing dead troops for him. :D

[Lolasik011]

@PitchNeeded Thanks, I'm waiting :)

[ByBurton]

@Lolasik011 my rat ai villages will have healers. And some others as well. Just check in from time to time to my github repository

[Lolasik011]

@ByBurton Thanks :)

[PitchNeeded]

I tried to put two apothecaries for Saladin at the back of his vanilla castles, but it turns out that when I tested it they weren't in range of healing injured units on his two front towers, so I will have to relocate them at the sides. Shows the importance of testing AIVs!

my rat ai villages will have healers. And some others as well. Just check in from time to time to my github repository

Tbh I think out of Rat, Pig and Snake, Snake would actually be most likely to have healers in terms of personality, as he is the most intelligent and clever out of the three. Plus he hires mercenaries so, why not mercenary healers too!

[ByBurton]

@PitchNeeded Maybe I will give the snake a healer as well. I wanted to give the rat one, as I think it kind of funny to see him with a healer. I won't give the pig one, but the Wolf will.

[Heroesflorian]

Shows the importance of testing AIVs!

A sentence to be framed with gold (not only in regard to healers)! :D

[PitchNeeded]

I'll wait for your castles :) @PitchNeeded

My vanilla re-edit with apothecaries is finished, all AIs apart from Snake, Pig and Rat have at least one in my version, I am just testing them today to make sure they are OK and will upload them tomorrow on here for use as an option in the next patch.

[PitchNeeded]

@Sh0wdown Here is the link for my Evrey's vanilla AI castles apothecaries edit for the next patch. All lords apart from Rat, Snake and Wolf now have at least 1 apothecary in this new edit.

One other minor change: There are also one or two more small (manned by 1 person) wells on some castles near the new apothecaries, just in case they are targeted by enemy slaves! Sultan's castles now have one small well too and Phillip has two small wells on his castle which had no wells in vanilla.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gfqCyRqYK9LmV1YgTOeYntDp_N1Q__Dg?usp=sharing

[Sh0wdown]

@Sh0wdown Here is the link for my Evrey's vanilla AI castles apothecaries edit for the next patch. All lords apart from Rat, Snake and Wolf now have at least 1 apothecary in this new edit.

One other minor change: There are also one or two more small (manned by 1 person) wells on some castles near the new apothecaries, just in case they are targeted by enemy slaves! Sultan's castles now have one small well too and Phillip has two small wells on his castle which had no wells in vanilla.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gfqCyRqYK9LmV1YgTOeYntDp_N1Q__Dg?usp=sharing

Included in upcoming 2.10.

[PitchNeeded]

Included in upcoming 2.10.

Thanks :D Looking forward to the new patch!