UnofficialCrusaderPatch / UnofficialCrusaderPatch2

Unofficial balancing patch installer for Stronghold Crusader 1
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Perhaps Slingers could be abit more resistant to arrow damage ( similar to spearmen ) #74

Open Mizo5119 opened 5 years ago

Mizo5119 commented 5 years ago

Reason : This unit while they are very cheap, are quickly forgotten due to their overall low suitability which doesn't really help the fact that they have the least amount of range out of all missile infantry in the game.

The buff could relegate them into more of an "Assault" infantry with the unique ability in that they can fire further away compared to other assault infantry like Spearmen/ Macemen ect..

Their DPS is fine, due to their rate of fire, but most of the time this unit doesn't take advantage of that due to the fact they must be at the front line groups which renders them easy pick offs by Archers.

Monsterfisch commented 5 years ago

I personally would buff their range and damage to light infantry as pebbles actually do fly very well and do pretty good damage to unarmored units if you want to go by realistic standards they would be nearly redundant against armor. One could even argue their range should be close to that of the other ranged units to act as a somewhat counter to them as the can be produced en mass are a bit faster and can kite the enemy but don't take a punch so you got to be quick on your feet. In return, I would make them less accurate as well if there is such an option so you wouldn't be able to use them to pick off lone units quite so easily.

Mizo5119 commented 5 years ago

Wouldn't that be abit redundant when you already have 3 other ranged units who are all good vs light units?

My proposal is merely based on a unit design point of view. Slingers are very fast, and they do have good dps/cost, but their survivability doesn't make them viable. They'd be very good complimentary units with spearmen early game as mobile light assault infantry if their survivability was buffed.

Monsterfisch commented 5 years ago

mhm, I see. I guess my proposal would require a bit of a deeper balancing where crossbows would be made even less effective against light units etc I was just worried if one would buff the health of the slingers it wouldn't represent their armor design anymore which is essentially no armor at all.

I still think their range as it is should be increased through, just to give them some sort of change to compete with the other ranged units. As health alone wouldn't make a difference as their DPS cant make up for it when attacking a castle with a bunch of units on towers.

PitchNeeded commented 5 years ago

I think slingers might need a very slight increase in arrow resistance but I don't think they should have a greater range, they are after all designed to be cheap units you can spam quickly for desperate wall defence (and if they had a greater range they would be overpowered for their cost I think), and as they are, they are are quite effective defensively on walls alongside greater ranged missile units, particularly against macemen, but also against heavy armoured troops because of their high rate of fire.

And on the subject of slingers, Sultan though could definitely do with having the ability to place a few Arabian archers on his lookout towers to be able to protect his slingers a bit better from enemy arrow fire.

YouMoMCallME commented 5 years ago

I personally do not take slingers at all.

PitchNeeded commented 5 years ago

I personally do not take slingers at all.

You don't use them?

I personally think they are effective, certainly if Lionheart is attacking me early in the game when I don't have that much gold, I would spam quite a few slingers alongside my archers as they are good on walls against heavy infantry attacking walls.

ByBurton commented 5 years ago

I love Slingers to be honest. They are very strong against units attacking your walls. I would love to see them being more resistant to ranged damage though. And maybe increase their damage against units (arabian) swordsmen.

PitchNeeded commented 5 years ago

And maybe increase their damage against units (arabian) swordsmen.

I think their damage against Arabian swordsmen is enough as it as. Wazir is often the earliest Arabian AI to attack me with a decent number of troops in the game and I find that a decent number of slingers on my walls alongside my archers is good enough to defeat the Arabian swordsmen he sends in his siege.

Likewise, I notice that Sultan often manages to defeat decent sized armies of Arabian swordsmen attacking his walls with his wall slingers so I think slingers' damage against Arabian swordsmen is OK as it is.

Also Arabian swordsman are supposed to be heavily armoured, and they are expensive too so don't need weakened I think.

ByBurton commented 5 years ago

Okay, but European swordsmen are too strong against slingers.

Rakso69 commented 5 years ago

@Monsterfisch

In return, I would make them less accurate as well if there is such an option so you wouldn't be able to use them to pick off lone units quite so easily.

There is. Archers aren't as much accurate as crossbowmen are for example. And horse archers running&shooting are also less accurate than if they would stand in place.

PitchNeeded commented 5 years ago

With the support for the idea, I am quite sure there will be an increase in slingers' protection against archers in the next patch then, but I hope it will only be slight, they are after all cheap units.

Monsterfisch commented 5 years ago

considering that you get 9 slingers for 1 firethrower which is much more effective against units attacking your walls I find using slinger there pretty redundant hence I suggested them as a counter to ranged/light units which would be very inaccurate on long distance but due to the mass production would then counter higher tier range (one could argue that crenelations should give additional protections against slingers if they get a similar range as archers (note ancient slings had a range of about ~350meter but at a cost of accuracy of).

That way moving in with mass slingers taking a shot and moving out of range again before enemies can fire would become a skill based tactical solution which in return would be countered by mangonels dealing spread damage to the area they are attacking. That was characters like the Abdul would also get a more protected economy with his slingers being able to pick of archers that try to intercept. That way mass slingers would also become a better solution against mass horse archers as the random spread would make avoiding shots more difficult and defense for some characters like the Abdul, not a complete joke unless he has mass archers stacked on his keep. One would have to be careful of since mass slinger could have the potential to be too strong overall so damage against melee like knights should potentially be reduced so they can not snowball out of control in open field eco-wars.