Increase the popularity and application of tunnel diggers

[Russianstory]

Friends, consider my idea in detail. The game has such a type of unit as a tunnel digger. A normal soldier, but I personally almost never use it. But it seems to me that not so many players use it. And here's the question / suggestion:

1) Maybe make the tunnel digger more versatile? To make him more like a unit that fights badly, has no armor, but moves quickly and (ATTENTION) - well destroys WALLS, TOWERS, GATES? Can make it more useful when destroying buildings ?? It seems very attractive to me!

PROS: 1) Relatively cheap 2) Travel speed 3) Digs tunnels, destroys walls, fights somehow

MINUSES: 1) Lack of armor

It seems to me that by making the digger of tunnels a destroyer of walls, we will enrich the tactics of war, and will increase the demand for this unit and increase its demand. The tunnel digger has to knock down walls well ... 30% worse than a PICKENER. To be honest =)

[GRhin]

You have pretty much described them as they currently are. The only thing wrong with tunnelors is that they are hard to use with their tunnels, more often than not all hitting the same patch of wall and so only was was worth the cost, the rest do nothing. Unless the mechanics of how the tunnellers target walls is updated, which is hard so unlikely, they will always be useless units in my opinion

[Russianstory]

In that case, wouldn't it be advisable to place (IF THIS IS IMPLEMENTABLE) these soldiers into the engineers' guild? A digger building (and a slot for a building) Give it to some other structure ??

[Pshemyslav]

You have pretty much described them as they currently are. The only thing wrong with tunnelors is that they are hard to use with their tunnels, more often than not all hitting the same patch of wall and so only was was worth the cost, the rest do nothing. Unless the mechanics of how the tunnellers target walls is updated, which is hard so unlikely, they will always be useless units in my opinion

In multiplayer yes. But making them cheaper (50 gold instead of 100), a bit more durable to arrows (1 more hit required), making them dig faster or just bury faster and dealing more damage to structures - that would help a lot for AI's that already use them. For me (I have no idea how things are done btw) I think that it's not that hard to implement those changes and I don't see any risks coming from them.

[GRhin]

My comments were related to human using tunnelors, not multiplayer specifically. Some of your suggestions (cost, durability) are simple, but not really that beneficial as the tunnellers aren't very effective for ai either, they run into the same problem I described earlier, in fact it is often worse for ai depending on angle of attack, not to mention the fact that tunnelors are easily countered by thicker walls, multiple layers of walls, building next to walls, and moat, all of which are normal in custom aivs. As for the "dig faster or bury faster" it's not a simple change, and still does not fix the actual problem with them. And finally the "deal more damage to buildings", well you'd need ai to change how they use the units for that to come into play, in order to attack buildings instead of just digging tunnels, which is the most difficult suggestion to implement so far. So yea, it is hard to implement, maybe no risk, but no real benefit from all that work in my opinion.

[Russianstory]

YES in general it is true. This unit is not the same as necessary. Here you need to weigh the complexity of the work and the result. But all the same, I would be glad if someone would do it. Or put them in a single guild of engineers in one building. I don't want to leave some units unused. Now the spearmen are always running - and I began to hire them and play with them. This has not happened for 20 years. NEVER.

[Pshemyslav]

By "deal more damage to structures" I meant the damage to fortifications with their tunnels, sorry. They deal AoE damage when they hit walls, but the damage is low and not enough for melee units to go through. If they could at least one-shot thin walls like weaker AIs have that would probably be the only case when they are useful. When they hit towers, they should also deal way more damage than they deal now, leaving the tower with red health bar so other units can take it down faster (for example catapults and melee units surround the castle). And about "all of which are normal in custom aivs.". I'm currently playing skirmish trail with custom AIC and Evrey's improved castles and there were cases in which Richard managed to succesfully hit other AI's with tunnels and even me. It just doesn't do that much even when it hits, but we cannot remove tunnelers from his AIC as it is unique to him, so making them cheaper and more durable to arrows is our best and easiest option to make him more happy. I suspect that changing the damage with tunnels would be too hard to implement, unfortunately, but if possible also great way to balance this out.

easily countered by thicker walls, multiple layers of walls, building next to walls, and moat

That's the thing, I really wish that tunnelers could force me to place moat or thicker walls.

[Monsterfisch]

in a perfect world the tunnelers would simply attack the next building/wall behind the one that was previously destroyed. T could be achived by checking for a new target every couple of gameticks whle the tunnel is beeing build or expanding the damaging area with every time a tunneler hits "empty" ground. another thing that could make them more usefull would be to give them the ability to deny repairs after successfully destroying a building/wall.

[Krarilotus]

I would suggest, that tunnelers should have an added instance when getting used, to choose the target wall or building to damage, So first you would have to choose the target wall, then you place down a tunnel. The tunnel entrance would only be placeable a predefined distance (like the current one) away from target location, while also taking into account the distance that needs to be traveled to manuver around cliffs and moat (as is currently the case as well)

-> This would just change the current behaviour, where when you palce the tunnel down, the target location is also predefined, into changing a player choice location.

-> it would fix the issue of tunnelers being useless because of all attacking thje same wall

-> We could add also an area damage to all buildings and structures in the tunnelers path, which would be marginal but still visble.

-> It woudl make tunnelers unique and it would justify their price, and their vulnurability, as they would still be onetime use only but once set up couldnÄt be countered and with some delay a building/wall piece would get severely damaged or even destgroyed ( maybe granary close to the wall? Place a tunneler and kill it from outside the castle... unless he gets shot down fast enough before entering his tunnel!)

[gynt]

Another idea: what about treating the tunnel ground as "dangerous terrain" on which a player cannot build for a certain amount of time. This makes them more effective with minimal changes :)

[Monsterfisch]

I like the idea of the tunnel area itself being treated as dangerous terrain having that dangerous terrain also be at the impact would fit well also ofc making the area that's "dangerous" could be made larger at the impacted area as it will have ruble and all.

It would still have the issue of many tunnelers attacking the same spot. If it were possible for the tunnelers to either change course when their target is gone or simply keep going in the same direction they were traveling last before the target was destroyed would help a lot with that aspect as it would then be able to carve a deeper breach into the enemy walls. That way adding more tunnelers to the ai would make sense and justify their cost since they would actually create better openings to get in particulary when they prevent closing the gab for a period of time.

[Krarilotus]

Even if the idea of just creating unbuildable terrain combined with extended digging range after impact sounds nice on paper: It doesnt really solve the issue or the bad targeting. A small wall piece 10-20 tiles in front of a castle will render even 100 tunnelers useless.

The problem lies in the target mechanic, which tile of wall gets focussed down. As there is no control for the attacker in what the target wall piece is, this issue will remain even if the tunnelers might be able to extend their range. The AI already struggles to place tunnels most of the time, because of how the target and tunnel range setup mechanics work. Without that being fixed, i don't see any use in discussing alternative solutions, that are of the same or higher complexity than recoding the targeting algorithm for the tunnelers. And i think a manual target would be best, as i don't see an easy way to create a smarter auto target algorithm, that doesnt suffer the same flaws or is easily exploited in some way or another.

Monsterfisch @.***> schrieb am Do., 15. Juli 2021, 00:06:

I like the idea of the tunnel area itself being treated as dangerous terrain having that dangerous terrain also be at the impact would fit well also ofc making the area that's "dangerous" could be made larger at the impacted area as it will have ruble and all.

It would still have the issue of many tunnelers attacking the same spot. If it were possible for the tunnelers to either change course when their target is gone or simply keep going in the same direction they were traveling last before the target was destroyed would help a lot with that aspect as it would then be able to carve a deeper breach into the enemy walls. That way adding more tunnelers to the ai would make sense and justify their cost since they would actually create better openings to get in particulary when they prevent closing the gab for a period of time.

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[Monsterfisch]

in my testing where ais have plenty of tunnelers and not just 3-6 they successfully place and dig tunnels all the time sure they don't hit the most critical part of the castle to deal the most possible damage but I don't think you can teach the stronghold ai to successfully know such a location to attack either particularly if that target was behind a wall. maybe this illustration can show better what I am describing also in terms of what I am thinking about how it could work the push through method would simply attack anything that lies between the tunnel and the keep after hitting the original target while the retargeting would destroy the thing closest after impact either way, it would deal a lot more damage than it does currently and would fix a lot sure you cant directly choose where the tunnel hits but instead of making it choosable why not have a preview of where the tunnel is going to hit when placed done instead that way the player has more control where it hits and the ai doesn't have to be "retrained".b

[Krarilotus]

@Monsterfisch i can't open the picture. But currently the AI is often not using or partically using tunnelers when:

• swamp terrain is close by
• any type of more complex cliff or river is blocking direct tunneling

• moat ist at the target location.

  And its enough that there is one target location blocked by moat, that all tunnelers wont work properly.

  Also i don't think its good to argue to targetfix tunnelers for AI. The main thing here are humands playing the game. I know everyone loves the AI and likes to create more and plkay with more of them. But the game is still for humans mostly.

  You could easily teach the AI to target multiple areas with tunnelers, if there was a targeting mechanic at hand. Right now there isn't -> The AI for example also is able to target focus down different towers and structures with their catapults and trebuchets -> The AI has specific targeting routines for troops and siege rams -> The AI is able to target specific wall pieces with a Siege tower

  I am more than certain, we will be able to do manual targeting for the AI just fine, if the AI has the option to manual target. The biggest problem is i suppose, that there is no control over tunnelers targeting at all. And a single wall piece surrounded by moat can break all tunneling efforts by humans as well.

  I am sure your solution sounds good on paper, but it really doesn't solve the main issue of tunnelers, their inability of getting used in the first place, because of the mechnics not catering to anything useful, esspecially as its easily exploited.

Your solution would only fix the case in which tunnelers already work and then also only partially, because you have no real control over where the next best thing to impact is, or how you then make sure, that tunnelers can't just dig tunnels over the whole map if they don't find anything close by to dmg. I feel likes its a rule nightmare to define this case properly, as it should ab smart autotargeting from your perspective without solving the initial target problem. And it then is as easily exploited as the original, by just creating a tunneler bait thing in front of the castle. Smart autotargeting i would say, is far harder to do, than doing one manual target that also AI could use to smarter manual target specific pieces of wall. It would actually include your solution, as the AI could just target adjacent wall pieces for example, to break a wall down completely. Or it could even go for structures like gates and towers. It would probably give us also another metric for seting up siege engines, because the current one often malfunctions.

Maybe it could work in the short term, to have some partial solution.

But for the long term, i think manual targeting is the way to fix the tunnelers mechanic and make it useful.

• @gynt's approach with making spaces where the tunneler impacted unbuildable terrain for a short amount of time, that could enhance tunnelers further. But i think it should be a byproduct not the solution for the broken mechanic tunnelers suffer currently and make them unenjoyable and unsable.

[Monsterfisch]

@Krarilotus (fixed the image) that's the thing tho in sh2 they had manually targeting tunnels(that didn't deal damage but transferred troops) but even those were basically never used in mp except for doing some random surprise attack from inside your castle as far as I remember ( steam edition cut out the tunnels as far as I know btw)

as for how tunnelers get baited currently via a wall with surrounding moat I cant confirm such a thing since I haven't seen it before but I assume the tunneler would ignore walls that are enclosed by a moat as they are "inaccessible" for them to attack similar to how a unit cant attack that wall and has to dig the moat first. what you call smart retargeting is really just checking midway if the target is still there and if not choose the next best location (with a potential max distance to check for maybe the same range that tunnelers use already from the point where the tunnel is currently at or the next target that is closer to the enemy keep) this would not require a complete rework and add of new logic as that sort of logic should already be built into the game.

swamp moat river cliff all those would affect manual targeting also which makes it hard for me to recognize them as points against me tbh =/ moats are meant to counter tunnels (IRL) same as cliffs rivers and swamps if you want tunnels to ignore those I would find that quite weird

tunnels don't need to work in all scenarios anyways same as rams siege towers etc they all have their strengths and weaknesses. however currently tunnelers lack the punch/impact when they work particularly against the ai as a player ai

player against a player is a different kind of beast but being able to deny the enemy to repair from a distance and breaking in should already make for more interesting outcomes when walls become actually viable in mp which they still don't.

if the player creates a scenario where the tunnelers dig halfway over the map with weird random walls I feel that would be a valid punishment for him since in that case, the opposing player can set up a lot of tunnelers from a safe distance to break-in.

maybe we need to sit down and debate the issue with some more visual examples as I might not make clear what i am trying to say

making the tunneler deny building after impact is something I think would definitely help a lot in many scenarios as i have stated in the past ^^

[Russianstory]

And if we add the ability to wind five tunnel diggers into the same hole (entrance to the ground). How to increase the efficiency of the unit. And the chances of more serious damage to walls and towers increase? that is, the diggers of tunnels under the ground go in the same channel, but as if one after another. like bullets in a pistol clip. One channel leaves the barrel. And five units per trench is like a limit so as not to abuse the number of units.

I also just got an idea. And if we make the diggers of the tunnels even more useful. But the idea is fantastic. If the diggers of the tunnels can dig exactly the tunnels bypassing the walls, to commit sabotage inside the fortress, and combat (albeit light) units will be able to move along this tunnel (underground) and exit exactly where the player indicated (analogy with the designation for a water moat). And the same scheme can work in reverse - if you are attacked and your fortress is weak, but the LORD must be saved. Hire a digger - he will dig a secret underground passage from your citadel ... and you can lead the lord with the guards. = e) Well, this is fantastic, of course, but how can these possibilities enrich the gameplay!

-- А если добавить возможность заводить по пять копателей туннеля в один и тот же лаз (вход в земле) . Как бы повышается эффективность юнита. И повышаются шансы на более серьёзный урон стенам и башням? то есть копатели туннелей под землёй идут в одном и том же русле, но как бы друг за другом. как пули в пистолетной обойме. По одному каналу выходят из ствола. А пять юнитов на траншею это как бы лимит такой, чтоб не злоупотреблять количеством юнитов.

Так же только что пришла идея. А Если сделать копателей туннелей ещё более полезными. Но идея просто фантастическая. Если копатели туннелей смогут рыть именно подкопы в обход стен, для совершения диверсий внутри крепости, а боевые (пускай лёгкие) юниты смогут перемещаться по этому туннелю (под землёй) и выходить именно там, где указал игрок (аналогия с обозначением для водного рва). И такая же схема может работать обратно - если на тебя напали а твоя крепость слабая, но ЛОРДА надо спасать. Найми землекопа - он выроет тайный подземных ход из твоей цитадели....и ты сможешь вывести лорда с охраной. =э) Ну это фантастика конечно но как же эти возможности обогатят игровой процесс!

[Monsterfisch]

While good in theory it sounds like this would mean you have to redesign tunnelers much more intensely if they were to have more tunnelers per tunnel or be able to send units through a tunnel. (coding wise it would require a lot more work for something that might not even be good/fun to use) Also to my knowledge tunnels were used for going beneath walls in the ancient world but less so in the medieval era where they learned to counter such tactics by placing their wall foundations on the bedrock of the area making tunnels preventing underground passageways to get in.

As I stated earlier the whole move troops through tunnels was done n sh2 but it was still not used a lot in my limited multiplayer experience I have gathered while I played the game. sending your lord through the tunnel also doesn't really sound like a great feature as you would have to handle the traveling underground part and what would happen if you have some sort of tunnel system that lets your lord effectively teleport from one place to another back and forth to avoid death.

Making tunnels penetrate deeper into castles and keeping the breaches/holes open would likely already improve their effectiveness by a lot and would coding wise not require a whole rewrite of the system but rather borrow from other mechanics and just add a check every now and then if the target is still "valid" and if not check for a new one closeby (similar to rams or units on aggressive stance attacking walls).

stacking multiple tunnelers into one already kinda happens right now as the tunnelers tend to attack the same spot when used (closest building/wall).