let aliens evolve in their base even if outnumbered

[ghost]

Seen on @sweet235, alienPvE1, sol.

Previous title, when tagged as T-Bug: aliens are unable to evolve near overmind when in sight of enemies

[ghost]

Indirectly linked to Unvanquished/Unvanquished#1416

[Viech]

What is the intended behavior?

[ghost]

In theory, aliens should be able to evolve near OM, even if enemies are around. This is required for them to defend their base.

[sweet235]

Is this about users or bots or both?

[Gireen]

Not a bug if its only the OM.

An exception applies to alien bases and outposts. Once more alien buildings are present than human players (50% more to be exact), the class can be changed without restriction.

[ghost]

About Unvanquished gameplay updates, the restrictions against aliens evolving near humans have become more forgiving. Nearby humans are only counted if there is a line-of-sight connection, so a player can sneakily evolve in the next room. Plus, evolution is allowed “in the alien base”, i.e. if the nearby humans are outnumbered by nearby alien buildables. Aliens can also devolve (return to inferior classes) near the overmind,

From 0.52 release

[ghost]

Ah, right, "outnumbered"... indeed.

Well, I think this is rather bad, but right, not a bug then.

[ghost]

This at least is very annoying in PvE btw. I also think it makes very little sense in PvP too, though.

[Viech]

I see; and I agree that this is confusing as players have no way of knowing when they can or cannot evolve. Moving to the gameplay tracker.

[Viech]

Is it a problem if aliens run at you with a dretch and then evolve right into your face though? Should we keep a minimum distance to enemies even if within your own base? Or some cooldown after attacking/being hurt?

[ghost]

Is it a problem if aliens run at you with a dretch and then evolve right into your face though?

outside of A base, yes, but in A base, it's their only way to defend.

Should we keep a minimum distance to enemies even if within your own base?

Why not.

Or some cooldown after attacking/being hurt?

Meh.

We could also only let dretches do that (evolve in sight) and only if distance is, i.e. 2 times the attack range of their desired class? Or, we could simply immobilise aliens for, say, 1s while they evolve?

All those are suggestions, and values should probably be cvars so that we can more easily find a balance.

[Gireen]

I think the idea is pointless. If there is a base then there are enough buildings to outnumber attackers. If not then its no more a base and even then aliens can still evolve if they get out of sight of humans.

[Viech]

So what about standing on creep as a condition? This is at least somewhat communicated through the health regeneration indicators.

[ghost]

If there is a base then there are enough buildings to outnumber attackers.

Depends. In PvP, yes, it's "very likely". In PvE? Not at all. And PvE is likely the most played thing those days, notably because it allows bootstrapping, but also because it allows beginners to play with veterans without being farmed in an endless loop (just in case I need to defend that mode, but I certainly hope it's a useless precaution)

[ghost]

So what about standing on creep as a condition? This is at least somewhat communicated through the health regeneration indicators.

Ah, so that creep would actually serve a purpose. Why not. But it needs to be increased, and in the current situation, it's possible to have creep traverse walls.

[Viech]

So what about standing on creep as a condition? This is at least somewhat communicated through the health regeneration indicators.

Ah, so that creep would actually serve a purpose. Why not. But it needs to be increased, and in the current situation, it's possible to have creep traverse walls.

One could additionally require a line of sight to the creep-producing buildable. Though I think it's better not to do so, because the odd case of being able to evolve at a wall next to the base is not as problematic as not being able to evolve within the base and visually on creep due to map geometry blocking the trace.

[ghost]

I agree with that, I just wanted to remind of that problem in case it slipped out of mind.

[Viech]

@Gireen would you be OK with tying enemy-observed evolution to in creep range instead of number of friendly nearby buildables exceeds number of nearby enemy players?

[Gireen]

I think that would make it even worse. "in creep range" means nothing else then very close to a building. So if a single human would enter the base aliens could not evolve until they get close to a building. In a base with all buildings on walls and ceilings that leaves only the Overmind, which makes every dretch a easy target and defending impossible.

[DolceTriade]

I actually disagree. Being in creep range in your own base is kinda expected. The only thing I might be worried about is abusing this and being able to evolve at a forward base with only a booster or something.

I'd say evo near an egg or om regardless of situation. No more random alien evolution!

[Viech]

I was about to agree with @Gireen on the single human argument. :grin:

Maybe tying it to a strict majority of friendlies over foes is not so bad … if communicated properly. And I don't know how to do that.

The only thing I might be worried about is abusing this and being able to evolve at a forward base with only a booster or something. […] I'd say evo near an egg or om regardless of situation.

Your forward almost always has an egg (and if it doesn't then you're already evolved).

[Gireen]

Being in creep range in your own base is kinda expected

Maybe i have the wrong definition of creep range but thats not true. As i understand it one is in creep range if there is a big second cross displayed, not like the small one around the overmind. If this is correct then it would exclude most of a base, and when buildings are moved to walls and ceiling it would again be impossible to evolve.

If the range is increased we get more room for abuse and sooner or later we get the current system or something similar

Maybe tying it to a strict majority of friendlies over foes is not so bad

a group of Dretches turning to tyrants in front of you mid combat 😄

[Viech]

Maybe tying it to a strict majority of friendlies over foes is not so bad

a group of Dretches turning to tyrants in front of you mid combat smile

Right, I was thinking of the current approach but worded it badly. So strict majority of friendly buildables over enemy players.

[ghost]

To me, creep is the creepy texture that's emitted from buildings. This is also what is described as creep along the code (creep_slow in C++ for humans who would walk on it, creep size in config files).

I've never understood what was the point of the mysterious healing bonus aliens sometimes have, sometimes don't and to me, it could easily be removed as it feels... well, mysterious and a bit of deus ex machina. (I do know it's about radius from from something though, maybe overmind? Maybe any building building? But something. And unlike many players, I have read the code more than once, even if not for that particular information)

[ghost]

Though I think it's better not to do so, because the odd case of being able to evolve at a wall next to the base is not as problematic as not being able to evolve within the base and visually on creep due to map geometry blocking the trace.

Plus humans can buy from immune armories hidden behind glass, not to mention current creep and booster heal go through wall, so considering it a game mechanism (to not abuse) could be ok.

a group of Dretches turning to tyrants in front of you mid combat smile

This is exactly what can happen in human bases if players use keybinds. Actually no, it's worst: it's luci suits with grenades, pulse rifle or lucis

[ghost]

so far it seems @Viech 's proposal: number of building over number of enemies, could work, but it does not at all. If you have not tried it yet, try sol alienpve1 one of the most played alien training layouts. you'll see you're sometimes unable to evolve near overmind itself.

Maybe the solution is instant evol in LoS of overmind (it starts at us after all!) and to add some more constraint like only evolve out of sight if not protecting main base? It would balance a bit the problem or armoury needs (but neither seen nor touchable, just about sheer distance which generates own lot of problems for bots... might have an idea, OT I know, but in case I forgot: mark the triangles in reach or armoury/medistat as beeing valid for such actions, this would allow to support several hacks used by mappers a clean way and to fix an ugly hack into hour codebase (that I'm the author of and only mitigates the problem)) for humans.

[Gireen]

i took a look at this sol alienpve1 layout. its an short corridor with overmind and a few buildings. surrounded on both sides directly with human bases containing countless buildings

its a sad joke that so much time was wasted here to have a serious discussion about a gameplay change that would only serve an specific unrealistic scenario, while making the game worse everywhere else.

anyone with that PVE layout can set g_evolveAroundHumans to 0 for unrestricted evolving

in normal games there is no problem with the current system

[ghost]

its a sad joke that so much time was wasted here to have a serious discussion

Well, in this discussions I learned that in fact, it's not about being close to A base, but about being outnumbered. I still think this is bad, as it prevents defending vs a rush, plus this could be used to besiege a base by spamming drills around it.

Also, how could I guess that info? If a dev contributor can't guess, how are players supposed to? We're always talking about simplifying the system: tell me how this is simple when you have no feedback you're outnumbered?

Last but not least:

would only serve an specific unrealistic scenario

Not unrealistic since it will happens often in alien PVE and I do intend to build more. For your information, sol/alienpve1 is a very popular layout.

while making the game worse everywhere else

Still has to be proven.

anyone with that PVE layout can set g_evolveAroundHumans to 0 for unrestricted evolving

So, 1) thanks for information (again, no easy way to guess about those stuff). 2) that does not solves the problem which is specifically about "in their base".