Postgame Damage Calculations from Strength Removal (Undying /Timbersaw) are Misleading

[jaredeg]

Currently it appears damage is calculated based off of the damage done at "Current HP" instead of the "Effective HP" removed.

For Example - if you remove 10 hp from someone and they have 90 HP as a result, and do 2 damage to them, the damage is only calculated as that 2 damage and does not take into account the strength removal effective amplification.

Solution

It seems like a really easy calculation and aligns with the way damage is calculated against Medusa

Current: When Undying removes Strength (and decreases someones health pool) the end game damage is calculated based off their new health pool

Desired: All calculations for damage are calculated based off the missing strength at the damage time. I believe damage to Medusa is calculated with Mana shield in consideration.

• For example:

  • A hero has 10 strength and, lets say undying takes away 2 strength (40 hp), they now have 8 strength. Any damage that is done to that hero during that time should take into consideration the HP formula to calculate the actual damage done to the enemy including the strength removed. (Lets say for purposes of this example the ratio is simpler than the formula and its just a 20% increase in post game calculations.)

Reasoning:

• All magic damage takes into account magic amp and resistance.
• All physical damage takes into account current armor, armor removal, and physical damage.
• Strength Removal is effectively a niche damage amplification.

Played undying core a few times, got aghs, had a strong build and popped off (from a score perspective) only to be belittled by teammates after the game due to "low damage output". This has happened nearly every time I have played core undying (divine/immortal bracket) and it demonstrates that the current calculations for damage is not effective in communicating the impact of the hero during the game.

Note:

One could argue something similar should be calculated for Timbersaw when they steal Strength from Strength / Universal heroes.

[jaredeg]

I would also argue the level of effort to include this seems quite small and that the impact from understanding statistics with undying/timbersaw is quite high.

[anotherCoward]

Shouldn't Slark also be affected by this behavior? Not sure currently if the debuff is applied before or after the damage takes place.

[jaredeg]

Damage is applied and then stats stollen, so yes slark should be technically affected, however as the damage is applied first and armor is removed as well it overtly increases slark's damage calculations making it a bit more normalized

[commentator24]

so if we start with 100 hp and 10 hp removed + 2 dmg you dont want to see just 2 dmg but 12 dmg is it? but I think there are few problems here. in 40 sec str is regained. current hp % is somewhat maintained so hp lost value is not always flat. i think it will be closer to 0 change at low hp and full 176 hp (8 str) at 100%. just like tread switching to str is not effective at low hp, maybe about and 0 to 60 hp and closer to 140-220hp towards 100% hp. as shown here lost about 176 when 8 str regained at 100% hp.

adding flat value is not accurate either because technically it deal dmg at the start and at the end. by removing max hp at start, any damage while max hp reduced also technically amplifies all damage as shown. how do you propose dmg calculation should be done then when there are unknown amplifications and unknown damage / heal at the end when str regained? this would greatly skew damage / heal statistics. the images just show you're doing more dmg to low HP heroes. dealt a bit more than 600 after 40 seconds (considering regen 3.5 and 4.3 per sec.. assuming 40x4.3 is 172 etc). just a simple 2x decay with aghs + 50 decay talent and waited 40 sec.

I dont really understand the calculation when str is lost or regained in relation to %hp as it is not constant / flat just like OD prison weird calculations. if you're aware of the formula please let me know because even your HP formula link is outdated. I think heroes will have 120 HP not 200. and 1 str is 22 HP not 20 HP if you keep decay until 0 str as shown:

anyway i usually just tell my friend 4 to 8 str steal is 4x22 flat extra dmg. if your goal is dmg, no it's not really worth it. you're spending 4200g for 88 extra dmg per hero. Might as well buy dagon 2 (4000g) for 317 dmg. this is like casting no aghs decay 3-4x to get that extra 317 dmg, which takes 12-16 seconds. easier to assume without aghs ~150 dmg. with aghs ~300 dmg. talent adds 36 dmg as shown. (not sure where the 2 heal from)

and for basic decay, isn't stat stolen first then damage? here timber lv 1 start with 670 hp. if 87 is applied first then 88 removal next..isnt it 670-87 = 583? but here it says 582. the 2nd decay is because max hp is lower than current hp so it start as 494. the 3rd decay im just confused because it's no longer decay at max hp. i tried to repeat but the value is just different every time.