Convert the used CAD projects in Free Software alternative as required by GPLv3

Currently the design depends on nonfree libraries required to work with the proprietary format f3d used in proprietary Fusion360 which conflicts with GPLv3 as it requires that the design be workable using Free Software solution[https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#FSWithNFLibs].

Proposing to convert the used project files in FreeCAD+OpenSCAD/LibFive to make the workable in a Free Environment while making them more functional.

Note that using such software management makes the designs more:

Functional - Enabling modular design instead of the current fixed
Robust - Through the possibility of test implementation in OpenSCAD/LibFive e.g. failing Quality Assurance ("QA") on a merge request if a hole with expected diameter of 10mm>=5mm is outside of the standardized scope.

Motivation

During my research for my CoreXY printer design i found this project and i would like to work on it and adjust it for my computing* as it saves me a time and resources on the design.

Namely LinuxCNC compatibility and ability to use tool-changer (https://forum.linuxcnc.org/additive-manufacturing/44926-considerations-for-linuxcnc-for-a-custom-ender-3-based-3d-printer#233477)

If such change is in the scope of this project then i would like to contribute to the effort namely:

Converting the provided STL files in OpenSCAD/LibFive
Working on standardization of the parts in FreeCAD and generated assembly
Cost optimization of the project e.g. using printed parts for the structure instead of aluminium extrusion

Converting voron files to freecad or openscad is way too much to ask from the developers. Imagine how much time that takes!!!

You can probably use the step files which are provided and can be used in freecad. Step is the universal format for exchange between cads, so I'd argue that there is no violation of GPLv3 here.

Converting voron files to freecad or openscad is way too much to ask from the developers. Imagine how much time that takes!!! @khumarahn (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040318425)

I calculated it on 814.2 EUR for an engineer working non-stop at the average minimal wage in the EU, feel free to correct me.

So I agree that it's a lot of work, but i am willing to work on it as it's still less resources in comparison to making my own design from the scratch.

.. So more like a question whether i can submit them here to avoid maintaining my fork :p

... and to figure out the management of work

Step is the universal format for exchange between cads, so I'd argue that there is no violation of GPLv3 here. -- @khumarahn (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040318425)

I find that being a valid argument, but i see it as "distribution of a built-binary using a proprietary solution" scenario as the imported files can't be changed easily in a FreeCAD that expects parametrized objects or in OpenSCAD/LibFive that expect functional objects.

This is not a commercial project, the monetary estimates don't mean much... (But just in case, my estimate is approximately 31'415.92 cayman island dollars.) Step files can be worked with in freecad, and parametrized models often don't exist in f3d either.

You should look around, other people proposed conversions to different formats, you may be able to collaborate with someone. But it is unlikely that freecad versions of files will become a part of this repo: then the team will be responsible for updating them, and this becomes unrealistically too much work.

CC @Maglin @FHeilmann @nemgrea

Please do not ping people into this conversation. We will look at this issue when we have time

converting the cad to ANYTHING other than the Standard for the Exchange of Product Data (.STEP) is counterproductive.

This is not a commercial project, the monetary estimates don't mean much... -- @khumarahn (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040339679)

I am aware, my intention was to calculate the amount of work that would be needed to realize this proposal where i usually use EUR/USD since calculating in terms of working hours is often not accurate enough.

Step files can be worked with in freecad, and parametrized models often don't exist in f3d either. -- @khumarahn (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040339679)

Thus why i said "easily" as using the STEP files for simulations and changing them gets really annoying over the time which then requires the object to be redefined for larger changes.

converting the cad to ANYTHING other than the Standard for the Exchange of Product Data (.STEP) is counterproductive. -- @nemgrea (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040341372)

I do not propose changing the output formats just the solution used to generate them so that it can be worked on in a Free Environment.

Please do not ping people into this conversation. We will look at this issue when we have time -- @raymondh2 (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040341032)

Noted, sorry! i am used to pinging people.

So first off let us start with the use of STEP files. STEP files are an ISO standard, ISO 10303-21, used by all major CAD packages to allow interchange of data between them.

Second some of our developers are significantly more comfortable in the CAD packages they use and won't likely ever be changing, hence the use of STEP files allowing easy exchange of the files.

Currently the design depends on nonfree libraries required to work with the proprietary format f3d used in proprietary Fusion360 which conflicts with GPLv3 as it requires that the design be workable using Free Software

this is a misunderstanding of the license and is not a requirement.

solution used to generate them so that it can be worked on in a Free Environment.

they already can be worked on in any environment since step files are the iso standard for all cad packages.

you are welcome to model whatever youd like and submit it to the voron users repo but the cad formats and workflow for the voron project are not up for debate.

So first off let us start with the use of STEP files. STEP files are an ISO standard, ISO 10303-21, used by all major CAD packages to allow interchange of data between them. -- @raymondh2 (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040349351)

Again i am not proposing to change the output, i only propose changing the CAD solution used to generate these files.

Second some of our developers are significantly more comfortable in the CAD packages they use and won't likely ever be changing, hence the use of STEP files allowing easy exchange of the files. -- @raymondh2 (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040349351)

I find it hard to believe that the proposed solution will be a problem in terms of a comfort as it's significantly more user-friendly and functional (excluding topological optimization as that is to my knowledge a thing made by proprietary industry and we have to make it from scratch in our solution due to them not sharing, but it works sometimes better then the alternative).

FWIW So far everyone who i convinced to try FreeCAD and OpenSCAD/LibFive (12 out of 12 ppl) found the solution significantly less flustrating and functional, but there seems to be a learning curve for those who migrate from Fusion360 so be aware of that if you want to migrate.

this is a misunderstanding of the license and is not a requirement. -- @nemgrea (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040355881)

I find this being a common argument, but from my conversation about hardware freedom with the license authors (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2022-01/msg00059.html) i understood that using proprietary solution to produce the Free Hardware Designs in questions is fine as long as the use of a proprietary solution does not infringes on one's rights to use, study, improve and redistribute.

In this case the design depends on non-free libraries that obstruct the right to:

improve - as i can't contribute to this project without using Fusion360 as the use of the proprietary libraries and formats is not compatible with functions and formats used in Free Software CAD solutions and it's implementation in the Free Software solution would be a violation of AutoCAD's license.
use - I can't adjust this design for my computing as it's not compatible with a free environment.

So in good faith i believe that this argument would be valid if Fusion360 exported it's project file in an non-proprietary format so it's still violation of the GPLv3 in terms of depending on non-free libraries that do not fall under the System Libraries term.

improve - as i can't contribute to this project without using Fusion360 as the use of the proprietary libraries and formats is not compatible with functions and formats used in Free Software CAD solutions and it's implementation in the Free Software solution would be a violation of AutoCAD's license.

yes you can, nothing preventing a step file from being opened or edited in any of the programs listed. so this is not true.

i contribute to this project heavily and i dont use fusion360 at all..

use - I can't adjust this design for my computing as it's not compatible with a free environment

yes you can, nothing preventing a step file from being opened or edited in any of the programs listed. so this is ALSO not true.

As we have no interest in forcing a CAD package on our devs I am closing this. You can always use whatever CAD package you want to open the STEP file we provide and make changes to it.

@Kreyren

I calculated it on 814.2 EUR for an engineer working non-stop at the average minimal wage in the EU, feel free to correct me.

As a full time paid open source developer, I find your line of thought rather amusing. Nothing stops you from sourcing those 814.2 EUR and remodeling into a CAD of your choice. I wish you a good luck, however I am not sure whether such a deed of yours would fit the pure saint open source standards if you do it for money.

i contribute to this project heavily and i dont use fusion360 at all.. -- @nemgrea (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040393055)

Can you elaborate how? Do you just submit the STEP files for the project developers to adapt them in Fusion360 project? Or is the development oriented around the STEP files with the fusion360 being used as a form of tool configuration without hard dependency on the design?

As we have no interest in forcing a CAD package on our devs I am closing this. You can always use whatever CAD package you want to open the STEP file we provide and make changes to it. -- @raymondh2 (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040404101)

Alternatively to "Forcing FreeCAD" the objects can be redefined in OpenSCAD which can then be imported in both Fusion360 and FreeCAD to work on them so it would no longer have a hard dependency on Fusion360 while enabling other solutions that would then be only used for

prototyping - As OpenSCAD is not the tool for that
Design of sketches for documentation and definition of the OpenSCAD files using polygons and polyhydrons

So changing the workflow to enable both solutions with the modular design enabled by functional engineering and exporting the STEP files on new release.

In terms of what would need to be done for it:

Slightly changing the file hierarchy
Issue tracking per STL file to be converted in a OpenSCAD
Changing on rolling-release repository with staged releases on demand.
Standardization of the parts (required for modular designs)

Would this be a better solution?

Fusion360 is used by some of the developers as their CAD package. When we work on the final assembly they get exported as STEP files by the other devs and assembled in the lead dev's package of choice, in this case Fusion360, and exported as a STEP. The functional difference between the F360 and STEP files is non-exsistent.

Moving to OpenSCAD and FreeCAD is not an option, as stated before, as some of the developers we have do not wish to learn it and find their CAD package more intutive. We recognive the pro's of OpenSCAD but the package does not fit OUR workflow.

Also FreeCAD can import Autodesk Inventor files through 3rd party addon https://github.com/jmplonka/InventorLoader -> So in theory if you also provide the ipt files along side the f3d then i might be able to use the Fusion360 project file in FreeCAD.

NOTE: I deprecated the use of Fusion360 in my development while ago so i don't know if ipt files include the same data s the f3d

There is no need to as we provide the STEP files.

As one of the developers for Voron and someone who CAD design work for a living (3D mechanical/structural design work, stress analysis, drafting, animations, etc), I deal with data from clients that use a wide variety of CAD packages. I would never dream of telling them that they need to start using XX software so it makes it easier for me to work with their data. Would I love it if they used the same CAD package as me? Sure, but that's not up to me.

STEP is THE industry-standard for sharing CAD across platforms. Until the CAD software industry is ready to release their proprietary strangle-hold on their formats or at least collaborate and standardize to make them interchangeable, sharing in a neutral format is how it's going to be done.

When I have access to software that costs thousands of dollars a year, there isn't a chance that I would consider using something like FreeCAD. And if these free/open-source CAD packages were so good, why would companies spend thousands of dollars a year for them when they could just get free/open-source?

Moving to OpenSCAD and FreeCAD is not an option, as stated before, as some of the developers we have do not wish to learn it and find their CAD package more intutive. We recognive the pro's of OpenSCAD but the package does not fit OUR workflow.

Just to say, THANK YOU!!!!!!

Too add another point..... CAD != Software. Software is simply text. You could write/edit software in notepad if you wanted to. Each CAD file format is written and optimized for a specific geometric modeling kernel. Not all CAD software use the same kernel.

There is no need to as we provide the STEP files. -- @raymondh2 (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040493855)

Just to clarify the problem with Fusion360 project file and providing only STEP is that the STEP files are imported just as "dumb objects" with stripped parametrization so i only have a basic functionality to work on them like changing the dimensions (which is insane to do for complicated parts as then the features are all hugged up) and adding/removing from the geometry though doing a difference of other objects. So these files are used really just as a reference to create the parametrized objects.

In real-life example (using ender-3 as i have that parametrized):

This is a step file importing the 2020 extrusion from ender 3:

I can just shorten it and use difference/adding of objects to it.

Compared to fully parametrized:

which has all features constrained and can be easily changed according to the design which change is then applied to all parts that are dependent on it.

So the problem is that the project is not contributable using free environment thus the proposal is to use OpenSCAD which is importable by both solutions or trying to export the Autodesk Inventor file that could be importable in FreeCAD through 3rd party addon, but that can't export to a format that has parametrization for Fusion 360.

.. or optimizing the file hierarchy to allow work on an unofficial FreeCAD project file as with the standardization of the parts that is very time efficient to define while not disrupting Fusion 360 workflow.

As one of the developers for Voron and someone who CAD design work for a living (3D mechanical/structural design work, stress analysis, drafting, animations, etc), I deal with data from clients that use a wide variety of CAD packages. I would never dream of telling them that they need to start using XX software so it makes it easier for me to work with their data. Would I love it if they used the same CAD package as me? Sure, but that's not up to me. -- @wile-e1 (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040496559)

I agree that is not a problem for stress analysis, drafting and animations, but the geometry can't really be changes in a way that would enable contributions as using FreeCAD you would have to parametrize all the objects.

STEP is THE industry-standard for sharing CAD across platforms. Until the CAD software industry is ready to release their proprietary strangle-hold on their formats or at least collaborate and standardize to make them interchangeable, sharing in a neutral format is how it's going to be done.

FreeCAD developers already standardized the file format that can be used freely across CAD solutions https://wiki.freecadweb.org/File_Format_FCStd

When I have access to software that costs thousands of dollars a year, there isn't a chance that I would consider using something like FreeCAD. And if these free/open-source CAD packages were so good, why would companies spend thousands of dollars a year for them when they could just get free/open-source? -- @wile-e1 (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040496559)

Why are you dismissing it just because it's not paywalled? You will probably be surpriced if you did, because it's significantly more functional (excluding the topological optimization depending on the shape, freecad should get there within a year or so https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?t=15460).

EDIT: FreeCAD is allegedly already there in terms of topological optimization

You misunderstand what the Fusion 360 file is. It's literally just the STEP file in another format. Parameterized models may not even exist for these designs as some of the designers don't even use parameterized design.

As things have already been explained I'm locking this issue.

You misunderstand what the Fusion 360 file is. It's literally just the STEP file in another format. Parameterized models may not even exist for these designs as some of the designers don't even use parameterized design. -- @claytono (https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/issues/308#issuecomment-1040574612)

It's not anywhere near a STEP file, it's a compressed zip archive storing proprietary forks of Free Software standards:

kreyren@leonid $ guix shell file -- file VORON2_v2.4_Assembly.step
VORON2_v2.4_Assembly.step: ASCII text, with CRLF line terminators

kreyren@leonid $ guix shell file -- file VORON2_v2.4_Assembly.f3d
VORON2_v2.4_Assembly.f3d: Zip archive data, at least v1.0 to extract, compression method=store

kreyren@leonid $ guix shell unzip -- unzip -l VORON2_v2.4_Assembly.zip
Archive:  VORON2_v2.4_Assembly.zip
  Length      Date    Time    Name
---------  ---------- -----   ----
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@Kreyren the parametric history that you are describing does not exist nor is it a requirement for it to exist. and this is specifically caused by the NEED to be able to use more than a single CAD package.

locking people into any one single package, or small list of packages, no matter how open source they are does not promote the free exchange of the information. the users should be free to open the files in ANY cad package free or purchased and have the ability to modify the files in ANY manner not just the manner defined by the original modeler.

dimensions and measurements defined by another user DO NOT accomplish this. un-tainted clean .STEP files do.

@Kreyren To hopefully make things more clear to you as to why this isn't going to change.....here are some additional points from someone who does this as a career (Design Team Lead for an engineering/design firm). I've been doing this for nearly 17 years total so, I'm not just someone who's read about CAD or taught myself from YouTube videos, etc...... I've used several different CAD packages over my career, and I have hundreds (if not thousands) of designs under my belt. I have designed things of all shapes and sizes, with designs from things like mobile telescopic-boom cranes, mining equipment the size of your house, multi-story structures, modifications of construction equipment, to things as simple as work-shop stands, and simple lifting devices...........so take the following with as little or as much weight as you think it's worth....

Parametric design has its place. There are things that could absolutely benefit from being parameterized (like panel clips, hinges, etc.). There are a LOT more things that would see no benefit.

Parametric design is great if you understand where your design is going or what it needs to look before you even start, or what could possibly change along the way (so you can plan for it). Very little of my 3D printing design work ever looks how it started, or how I expected it. Designing things for 3D printing, especially when esthetics are important is more like sculpting than it is CAD. When features get built on features upon other features, the parametric workflow breaks down and becomes un-usable. Going back upstream to try and edit a parameter that hundreds of other edits depend on generally causes everything to explode and having to spend a lot of time fixing things. Think "unhandled exception"

Just to clarify the problem with Fusion360 project file and providing only STEP is that the STEP files are imported just as "dumb objects" with stripped parametrization so i only have a basic functionality to work on them like changing the dimensions (which is insane to do for complicated parts as then the features are all hugged up) and adding/removing from the geometry though doing a difference of other objects. So these files are used really just as a reference to create the parametrized objects.

This is another perfect example of why complicated parts (like a Voron toolhead) are just no good as a parametric part. What if you want to change 1 dimension for a feature, but you don't know how the model was built.....and that feature was pretty much at the beginning of the design tree and changing it beyond a certain value causes all the features downstream to break. What good is that to anyone?

I agree that is not a problem for stress analysis, drafting and animations, but the geometry can't really be changes in a way that would enable contributions as using FreeCAD you would have to parametrize all the objects.

I strongly disagree with that statement. All of printer models (past and present) are a testament to the ability of different designers being able to collaborate with various methods (generally STEP export). It would be easier if we all use the same software, but it's not realistic to force that on anyone when this is a volunteer situation.

Not being able to easily work with models that are imported as STEP files (other than changing the very basics, I'm going to say that this is probably due to a lack of understanding of some of the more advanced modeling tools, because it's quite easy to manipulate a solid that are imported with no intelligence. And if you want to, you can even add intelligence to them with parameters for yourself.

Another point that you're not considering with respect to moving to OpenSCAD is that all of our designers have models from their designs in THEIR own native format (Solidworks, Inventor, Solidedge, Fusion, etc.). I doubt you'd convince anyone to ditch all that and start from scratch or add intelligence into their design when there wasn't any to start with. Once again, CAD != Code. This isn't just a text file you can open in any text-editor of your choice.

STEP is THE industry-standard for sharing CAD across platforms. Until the CAD software industry is ready to release their proprietary strangle-hold on their formats or at least collaborate and standardize to make them interchangeable, sharing in a neutral format is how it's going to be done.

FreeCAD developers already standardized the file format that can be used freely across CAD solutions https://wiki.freecadweb.org/File_Format_FCStd

Out of the 4 pieces of design software I have access to, not a single one of them will open a native .FCStd document, so what does that tell you?

Inventor Professional 2023

Solidworks Professional 2021

Solidedge Community Edition 2022

Fusion360 (w/ Paid Subscription) 28GHchC8KV

So the problem is that the project is not contributable using free environment thus the proposal is to use OpenSCAD which is importable by both solutions or trying to export the Autodesk Inventor file that could be importable in FreeCAD through 3rd party addon, but that can't export to a format that has parametrization for Fusion 360.

.. or optimizing the file hierarchy to allow work on an unofficial FreeCAD project file as with the standardization of the parts that is very time efficient to define while not disrupting Fusion 360 workflow.

Our hierarchy already works with the format develop by the International Standards Organization (ISO 10303-21). Why would we change everything to conform to a standard that isn't being use in industry? In my entire career, I have never seen, been asked about, or even been emailed by a client.... a single .FCStd file. At this current moment (and for the foreseeable future) STEP is the standard for 3D.....DXF is the standard for 2D. Full stop.

When I have access to software that costs thousands of dollars a year, there isn't a chance that I would consider using something like FreeCAD. And if these free/open-source CAD packages were so good, why would companies spend thousands of dollars a year for them when they could just get free/open-source? -- @wile-e1 (#308 (comment))

Why are you dismissing it just because it's not paywalled? You will probably be surpriced if you did, because it's significantly more functional (excluding the topological optimization depending on the shape, freecad should get there within a year or so https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?t=15460).

With respect to suggesting everyone use OpenSCAD, out of curiosity, I downloaded it and messed around with it a little this morning. I'm sure it's great for some things, but certainly not for my workflow. The fact that I can't even rotate the model (or at least couldn't easily see a way to) in a custom orientation to see how I really need to edit a part is testament to how limiting using software like this would be. I was absolutely not surprised at how "functional" it was after coming from pro-level software. This would be the equivalent of asking people who use Photoshop for a living to use a parametric-only version of GIMP. If I had to use a tool like this for my day job, I'd find a different day job. If you want to completely squelch all of the innovation, esthetics, and creativity that makes Voron...Voron....then move to OpenSCAD. I would most certainly hang up my design hat and leave the Dev team. How would you feel if your company or any of the projects that you contribute to suddenly said that all of your code must be written in Notepad++ instead of the editor that you're comfortable with or the editor that makes things easier for you?

VoronDesign / Voron-2

Convert the used CAD projects in Free Software alternative as required by GPLv3 #308

Motivation