Spell: Dominate Undead

[Tyloris]

The spell dominate undead from the death knight spell list operates like a normal dominate creature spell, in that it causes the creature to be charmed. However, most undead (that is, 75/141 of existing undead in 5e) have immunity to the charmed condition, rendering the spell useless half the time. The ones that don't have that immunity are usually some variation of zombie or skeleton.

I suggest making the ability more or less the same in function, but remove the charmed condition. Basically make it like like the Oathbreaker Paladin's Control Undead ability.

Side note: could be renamed Control Undead, since that's the name of the actual undead ability.

[orjanbp]

Dominate Undead or Control Undead, either sounds like a good plan.

But good catch! It's especially it makes sense to change it away from Charmed since the Oathbreaker's way of "the target must obey your commands for the next 24 hours" is a lot closer to what the ability 'should' be be doing. What with Charm, on the other hand, being less "do as I say" and more "we are friends, and you cannot harm me".

Though as far as changing the name, one thing is stepping to my mind. Since it is called Control Undead for the Oathbreaker as well, I am wondering if changing the effect and the name would step pretty close to looking as though we're taking the Oathbreaker's class feature and turning it directly into a spell? It's a small thing that maybe need not be a huge issue, just something I noticed. 🤔

That might be the reason for calling it Dominate Undead instead, even if it is Control Undead for the Death Knight in World of Warcraft. But that is mostly me hunching without really remembering, haha.

[Tyloris]

The reason I'm suggesting for Control vs Dominate is because there are certain spells that, when they work pretty much the same way, have very similar names. Charm Person/Monster, Conjure Animals/Celestials/Fey/Etc., Summon Fiend/Shadowspawn/Etc. So intentionally going away from Dominate X, we ensure that there's less confusion.

[orjanbp]

So essentially, removing the parts where "creature is charmed" is part of the equation would step far enough away from the Dominate X spells to warrant changing it into something else?

I can definitely see that. Though right now the formulation in the spell is the same as the other Dominate spells, except targeting undead creatuers.

But basically there'd be two ways to go about this, wouldn't there?

• Either keep the "Dominate Undead" namespace for it, keep it similar to the other Dominate spells, but change the charmed parts to something that is basically able to circumvent charmed condition immunity. Just change the first "charmed" part of the spell description to be something else.

• Change it to "Control Undead" like you're pitching and then change the spell up entirely, removing the charmed part and rewriting the rest of the text. So that it deliberately does not evoke the Dominate spells at all.

The second one could be a good call there just to avoid the whole "it's a Dominate spell but a pretty different one" situation. Not create something where it follows a similar pattern to other spells, but then breaks from it in significant ways. It would need to be sufficiently different from the Oathbreaker's class feature as well, but that's a bit of a given on the "avoid recreating published material" principle.

Have to say this also makes me a bit curious just how the Dominate spells even keep balance in mind. 😆 Our Dominate Undead here was put at 4th level. That's the same as Dominate Beast. But I am not entirely understanding (though they probably explained it somewhere) why Beast is 4th, Person is 5th, and Monster is 8th.

If there's a mechanical reason for those leaps, or if it's just a thematic leap to evoke the amount of power needed to dominate more and more intelligent and/or overall powerful creatures.

This turned into a little pour out, but it got me thinking!

[Tyloris]

I'd imagine that the levels have to do with the breadth of the target range and the power level of those targets.

• Beasts are typically straightforward in their abilities, with no spellcasting to ruin the DM's day. Plus they, apart from the low-level domesticated animals, are usually only encountered in the wild. It's a lot rarer to see a high CR beast than most other creature types, usually.
• Humanoids are pretty much any NPC. A spell that lets you control them is dead useful for a large number of social interactions and can turn an enemy's minions against them. However if you aren't facing a social campaign or are in a dungeon, the spell is of limited effectiveness.
• Monsters are any creature that doesn't have charmed immunity. The bestiary portion of 5e.tools seems to be down right now so I can't count them, but a globally affecting domination spell is pretty damn strong.

Following the above, a Dominate/Control Undead spell would probably fall on either the same level as Beasts or Humanoids. The chances of running into one are a lot lower than running into a beast (who can be found pretty much anywhere), unless the campaign is focused on them and you can't use them in social situations for the most part (people typically react pretty violently to undead). On the other hand, ability wise they can be pretty strong.

[Tyloris]

To compare and contrast Dominate Beast and Dominate Undead:

Dominate Beast Undead

4th-level enchantment

---

• Casting Time: 1 action
• Range: 60 feet
• Components: V, S

• Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

  You attempt to beguile a beast an undead that you can see within range. It must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be charmed by you for the duration. If you or creatures that are friendly to you are fighting it, it has advantage on the saving throw.

While the beast is charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence. You can use this telepathic link to issue commands to the creature while you are conscious (no action required), which it does its best to obey. You can specify a simple and general course of action, such as "Attack that creature," "Run over there," or "Fetch that object." If the creature completes the order and doesn't receive further direction from you, it defends and preserves itself to the best of its ability.

You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn't do anything that you don't allow it to do. During this time, you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well.

Each time the target takes damage, it makes a new Wisdom saving throw against the spell. If the saving throw succeeds, the spell ends.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell with a 5th-level spell slot, the duration is concentration, up to 10 minutes. When you use a 6th-level spell slot, the duration is concentration, up to 1 hour. When you use a spell slot of 7th level or higher, the duration is concentration, up to 8 hours.

Yeah, it's exactly the same spell with only two word changes. Not even a switch to being a necromancy spell. The Oathbreaker Control Undead says this instead:

Oathbreaker Channel Divinity: Control Undead As an action, the paladin targets one undead creature he or she can see within 30 feet of him or her. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target must obey the paladin's commands for the next 24 hours, or until the paladin uses this Channel Divinity option again. An undead whose challenge rating is equal to or greater than the paladin's level is immune to this effect.

[Tyloris]

I'd support changing the spell to work a bit differently than the dominate spells. One idea is bringing in parts of the infernal calling and planar binding spells, which work somewhat similarly (albeit with a conjuration aspect).

[orjanbp]

Both of those sound like interesting directions to go, I like it!

Could make use of the CR limitation that Infernal Calling propositions, though it doesn't necessarily need to. If the DM puts a very strong undead for the party to try and control, that is the DM's call to present that very strong undead.

And if we didn't do that, I imagine it could wind up something like ...

Control Undead 4th-level necromancy

• Casting Time: 1 action
• Range: 60 feet
• Components: V, S
• Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You attempt to bind an undead creature that you can see within range. It must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become bound to serve you for the duration of the spell. While the creature is bound, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two are you on the same plane of existence, which you can use to mentally issue commands (no action required).

It is under the Dungeon Master's control, but must follow your commands to the best of its ability for as long as it is bound to you. You might command the creature to attack an enemy, guard a location, or fetch an object. If the creature completes the command and doesn't receive further direction from you, it defends and preserves itself to the best of its ability. During combat, the creature rolls its own initiative and has its own turns.

You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn't do anything that you don't allow it to do. During this time, you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well.

Each time the creature takes damage, it makes a new Wisdom saving throw against the spell. If the saving throw succeeds, the spell ends. Once the spell has ended, the creature cannot be controlled again this way for 24 hours.

Spitballing a bit with how the spell could be described, given what we've talked about. 😄

One thing I kind of enjoy from Planar Binding, is how it has a very long duration at the cost of a component ... but if we were to involve something like that, then we should also drop the part where it taking damage breaks the control.

But that could probably be a good idea to do.

What comes off of the top of my head right now would be:

• Either it has a 1 Action cast and 1 Minute duration, and damage can break the hold (if so, maybe drop the 24hr immunity caveat).
• Or it has a 1 Minute cast and 1 Hour duration, as well as a component (500gp obsidian gem?), but the effect cannot be broken by circumstance. Perhaps also limit CR by level of the spell, but again to what was written earlier.
• Or it has a 1 Minute cast, 24 Hour duration, but the component is consumed by the spell.

What this is turning a little bit into is basically a higher level Animate Dead, in a way? But if that is the more time spent kind of summoning spell, then it would make sense for this one to be more of an immediate "for this moment, I control you" type spell. Which was probably the intent when basing it off of Dominate Beast. https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/animate-dead

[Tyloris]

The ability in the game had a 1.5 sec cast, was limited to creatures less than 1 level above yours, and had a 5 minute duration. Translating that into 5e terms, that's an action casting, CR limit, and about 1 hour duration.

A 1 minute cast would render the spell practically useless unless you've bound the undead in some way already. I'd suggest a combination of the first two options: a 1 action cast and 1 minute concentration duration (scaling up as normal for a dominate spell), with a CR limit (equal to or less than your level, like polymorph), can't be broken by damage, and has an expensive material component (a link of chains carved from obsidian).

[Tyloris]

Also, the difference between this spell and animate dead/create undead is that those spells only allow you to control or re-control undead that you have created, not those that you come across in your travels.

[orjanbp]

Also, the difference between this spell and animate dead/create undead is that those spells only allow you to control or re-control undead that you have created, not those that you come across in your travels.

I know that, I read the spell! Haha. Though I feel I was aiming at still stands in how Animate Dead is a spell that takes longer, lasts longer, and focuses on creation of new creatures (I wrote summon, though mechanically to the same end) ... and with that it would put good cause to keeping this as an immediate and short-lasting seizing control of an existing creature.

But that aside though, I like the idea of combining those options. A material component cost makes it easy to justify having it last longer, and the concentration breaker would still be "just attack the caster" and with it no point putting that much into breaking it by the creature taking damage.

Far as scaling goes, if it'd go on spell lists that are not Death Knight then increased duration by level could make sense. I mean, for the spell itself it could make sense either way, but if it was exclusively a Death Knight thing and they cap at 5th level spells. 😅

[Tyloris]

Ah, right. Forgot about the fact that it's DK specific. I like that it is, but that does change the duration part a bit. Split the difference and say 10 minutes, up to an hour? That feels like a reasonable timeframe, especially since other "summon" spells have a 1 hour duration. I think 1 minute is just enough time to turn one enemy against another in the same fight, 10 minutes is enough to get to the next fight or two, and 1 hour should last most of a dungeon.

[orjanbp]

Not sure how common or uncommon it is to have a spell that scales by just one spell slot up, and then that is the most it scales?

Though one sort of compromise that could maybe work, would be to make it 10 min at 4th level, 1hr at 5th level, and then +1 additional hour for every higher level above 5th after that. Or just +1 hour for every level above 4th if "1hr 10min" of a duration is not too oddball.

Though given the component cost, maybe it could just start as a 1 hour duration spell.

[Tyloris]

Yeah, 1 hour sounds good too, though if that's the base then the next step up should be 8 hours, I think. There's also an option to extend the duration (or removing the concentration part) by consuming the material component, but I think it's fine without it.

[orjanbp]

The typical increments would be 1m > 10m > 1hr > 8hr > 24hr and so on yeah, I was suggesting baseline 1hr + 1hr per higher spell level essentially to do a kind of shorthand scaling that minimizes the feel of "this spell can scale pretty high, but I as a Death Knight only go 5th level spells". 😄

Though maybe it doesn't necessarily need to do that much scaling. I gotta say that I think there's something kind of interesting in a baseline 1hr duration and then up that maybe right to 24hrs by consuming the material component.