[Variant] Chushogi

[WandererXII]

[Edit] 4th of October - testing some aspects of the implementation here: https://lishogi1.org/assets/sandbox/chushogi/index.html Please take a look around and if you have any feedback please leave a comment.

[AlexGTrick]

Also I think, in realies of Chu Shogi it is useful to display possible moves of all pieces on board, including enemy pieces. Moreover, it's probably better to display not only all legal moves, but also a potential of moves of piece, i.e. if its move is blocked by another pieces, for example.

As an example I can note a ChuDo program, where moves highlightings are implemented perfectly for newcomers. http://sadbhava.ru/chudo/index_en.html

feel free to check it out. I'm saying not about the panel with move hints on screenshots on the site (which is good as well). I'm saying exactly about move highlightings. Program works at Windows systems. Sadly, the developer stopped its further development, but as is this program is wonderful.

[WandererXII]

Thanks a lot for commenting daxx00.

1. [Game Length] Games do not tend to last 600-800 moves. If there is an appreciable difference in skill level, normally one player has a resignable position within 200 moves. 600 moves (600 ply) in chu shogi is about as impressive as 100 moves (200 ply) in chess.

I'm glad to hear this, I think I will set the limit to 1000, just to be safe.

2. [Checkmate] The game is over when a player has no more royals (i.e. they have all been captured). No serious entity in the history of chu shogi (JCSA included) disagrees with this. In Japan, I suppose 99% of people would have resigned by the time they are effectively "mated", but the game is not forcibly concluded at that time.

Trying to implement checkmate, I came across some not well defined edge cases, that would just add unnecessary complexity to the rules, so I agree that it's better to just stick with the more traditional rules and not implement checkmate after all.

3. [FEN Notation] I don't proclaim to know much about keeping notation this way, but I have thought a fair deal about how to mark each type of piece with just one letter. I don't know how practical this is, considering it makes use of multiple alphabets, or how much simpler working with 1 letter per piece type is compared to 2 letters. At the very least, all the letter selections make at least a little sense.

In the end I went with the SFEN implementation that is similar to what winboard with HaChu uses. I will post a link to what I have currently. But this is very interesting.

Repetition is the absolute last thing that should be considered, once everything else is perfect. It's messy, complicated, and VERY RARE. Liken this task to squaring the circle. Nobody has yet managed an in-app solution. To avoid implementing the repetition rules wouldn't be so bad.

I haven't got around to implementing repetition yet, but I will probably go with simply - 4th perpetual check or 4th repeated attack on any piece - loss, else draw. But I don't want really want to accommodate players passing their turn with lions four times in a row (or less and continue playing) so I kinda want to disallow that even on the first repetition.

[WandererXII]

It is perfectly legal to move a king or prince onto an attacked square, whether you have one or both of them. It's the player's task to make sure they keep their king safe, and if they make a mistake, it's up to the opponent to notice and capture their king.

Oh, I see. But in an online blitz game I insist at least on separate game setting to make moving the only royal piece under check illegal.

Changing rules based on clock speed, seems unnecessary. If the rules are that you can move a royal piece into check, that's what it is. Anyway, I don't think really fast clock is the right time format for chushogi anyways.

As an example I can note a ChuDo program, where moves highlightings are implemented perfectly for newcomers. http://sadbhava.ru/chudo/index_en.html

feel free to check it out. I'm saying not about the panel with move hints on screenshots on the site (which is good as well). I'm saying exactly about move highlightings. Program works at Windows systems. Sadly, the developer stopped its further development, but as is this program is wonderful.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out, but everything is going to be handled exactly the same as it is with standard shogi and minishogi. But I understand that chuushogi has a steeper learning curve, so something similar might be useful...

[WandererXII]

I also wanted to throw some more questions here:

1. KIF

In kif for standard shogi, for custom positions we display the board like this:

手合割：平手
後手の持駒：金四　銀二　香三　歩十三　
９ ８ ７ ６ ５ ４ ３ ２ １
+---------------------------+
| ・ ・ ・v桂 ・ ・ ・ ・ ・|一
|v玉 角v歩 馬 ・ ・ ・ ・ ・|二
| ・ ・ ・ ・ ・ ・ ・ ・ ・|三
| 桂 ・ ・v歩 ・ ・ ・ ・ ・|四
|vとv桂 ・ ・v歩 ・ ・ ・ ・|五
| ・ ・ 飛 ・v全 ・ ・ ・ ・|六
|v歩 桂 ・ ・ ・ ・ ・ ・ ・|七
| ・ 香 ・ ・ ・ ・ ・ ・ ・|八
| ・v銀 ・ ・ 龍 ・ ・ ・ ・|九
+---------------------------+
先手の持駒：なし

Is there something similar for chushogi? We can't simply extend the same system because most pieces use the same kanji for both promoted/unpromoted versions - example: 獅 (is this the unpromoted lion, or a lion obtained from promoting kirin...). Bishop obtained from promoting leopard uses '小角' and rook obtained from promoting gold uses '金飛車'. But these names are too long to use for the board anyway.

2. Numeric square coordinates

Lishogi offers many notations, two of them use numeric coordinates, numeric example is also listed here - https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/move-notation-1 (78Ln). But we can get something like this: H-112. Does this mean that the move ended on 1st file and 12th rank or 11th file and 2nd rank, there is no way to tell. We could either put a separator (which one ;,./) between the file and rank: H-11,2 Or we could use numbers up to 9th rank and then use 'a', 'b', 'c': H-b2. Saw something similar here: http://akasaka0x16.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-88.html

[CouchTomato87]

I might be wrong, but chu shogi is so niche that I don't think there's a standardized kifu... and if there is, it probably doesn't matter. My gut is that you can just create your own and roll with it.

As for coordinates, I think some kind of breaker is preferable. My preference would be H11-2 for the case above. Alphabet is better for character efficiency -- but I'll be honest, I can barely translate letters to numbers after h :(

[WandererXII]

As for coordinates, I think some kind of breaker is preferable. My preference would be H11-2 for the case above. Alphabet is better for character efficiency -- but I'll be honest, I can barely translate letters to numbers after h :(

'-' is used for separating piece letter from the destination coordinate, so I would prefer to use something else. Not sure what would be the most readable, or if there is already something people already use, I would rather use that.

• H-11,2
• H-11;2
• H-11|2
• H-11'2
• H-11:2

But if the letters were used, only 'a', 'b', 'c' would be used in this case, since we would use single digits up to the 9th rank/file and then 'a' for 10th, 'b' for 11th and 'c' for 12th, basically hex. So H-11;2 would become H-b2. This look neat, but I find it kinda hard to read.

[CouchTomato87]

Of those, maaaybe :

One more alternative is hexadecimal. 123456789ABC

Is that possible?

[AlexGTrick]

Changing rules based on clock speed, seems unnecessary. If the rules are that you can move a royal piece into check, that's what it is. Anyway, I don't think really fast clock is the right time format for chushogi anyways.

40-sec byoyomi is not actually a blitz format for experienced players. But for newcomer it is. The best time setup for chu shogi is a correspondence game.

In real life it's not easy to allocate 2-3 hours in a row just to play one Chu Shogi game. That may be a game with a time control like 1 hour + 40-sec byoyomi.

If there is a possibility to defer game in mutual agreement of players, that will be more appropriate. Or, at least, to imitate it, for example, with starting the game with custom position and custom time (for both players).

I'm not agreed with a concept of allowing moving into check at all. But if most wants this, then I'd like to vote at least to separate setting, i.e. like checkbox in create game interface for allowing/disallowing moving into check.

[WandererXII]

Of those, maaaybe :

One more alternative is hexadecimal. 123456789ABC

Is that possible?

That's what I meant by the second variant. I will go with this for now, this is easy to change later.

In real life it's not easy to allocate 2-3 hours in a row just to play one Chu Shogi game. That may be a game with a time control like 1 hour + 40-sec byoyomi.

If there is a possibility to defer game in mutual agreement of players, that will be more appropriate. Or, at least, to imitate it, for example, with starting the game with custom position and custom time (for both players).

This is an interesting idea, but not sure if it's worth implementing for its limited use. There would also be a lot of details to iron out - when does the game gets unpaused, how long till it expires completely, who loses in that case, etc. Perhaps simpler and more intuitive would be to allow turning the game into a correspondence game. But then what rating to count the game towards - real time or correspondence. Interesting... but a separate issue.

I'm not agreed with a concept of allowing moving into check at all. But if most wants this, then I'd like to vote at least to separate setting, i.e. like checkbox in create game interface for allowing/disallowing moving into check.

I'm against allowing illegal moves (for example we don't allow users to checkmate the opponent by dropping a pawn in standard shogi), but this is considered a legal move, not allowing it would mean changing the rules. I understand that moving into check with your single royal piece is never a good idea, but I also don't like the idea of changing the rules. Slippery slope fallacy - but one might argue that then we shouldn't allow other moves that are losing for the player.

[AlexGTrick]

I'm against allowing illegal moves (for example we don't allow users to checkmate the opponent by dropping a pawn in standard shogi), but this is considered a legal move, not allowing it would mean changing the rules. I understand that moving into check with your single royal piece is never a good idea, but I also don't like the idea of changing the rules. Slippery slope fallacy - but one might argue that then we shouldn't allow other moves that are losing for the player.

following that logic, forbidding single repetition by Lion-pass move in contrast to 4-time repetition implementation for another cases, is also changing the rules

But I don't want really want to accommodate players passing their turn with lions four times in a row (or less and continue playing) so I kinda want to disallow that even on the first repetition.

I understang the common idea - to disallow abusing of repetitions which may be used, for example, to make space for thinking on byoyomi-based time control. And I think, this is in general a good idea to avoid this abuse.

I believe the best way to handle controversal points is following the common sense, and making the play most fair for both players as possible.

Forbidding the king going into check follows similar goal - avoiding abuse of player in limited time play to simply move the king away of dangerous space while the opponent is not expecting that and doesn't notice that.

The goal is to make play of new players (the majority) more fair.

And I'm not arguing to make this rule as a standard, you may set up the moving under check as legal by default. I'm proposing the optional setting, that's up to help new players in awkward situations in game.

As an alternative, you may not make a move under check illegal with immediate lose, but make the highlight for the opponent, that enemy's king is under check.

[WandererXII]

following that logic, forbidding single repetition by Lion-pass move in contrast to 4-time repetition implementation for another cases, is also changing the rules

I understang the common idea - to disallow abusing of repetitions which may be used, for example, to make space for thinking on byoyomi-based time control. And I think, this is in general a good idea to avoid this abuse.

Yes, unfortunately it is also changing the rules, although a pretty contested rule. CSRM also lists じっと in a separate section than sennichite, not mentioning the 4th repetition there, only repetition. But it is also listed in sennichite, so not sure how to interpret that... But if there is pushback against that I'm not going to do it, but I think this is much less significant change than whether walking into check is legal or not.

I can see how moving into check and losing because of it, could be pretty disheartening for new players - the learning curve for chushogi is already pretty steep, just remembering how all the pieces moves takes a lot of time... And in most games people might be familiar with - chess, shogi..., you can't move into check. But since moving into check is part of the game, it might be a strategy to prepare sort of a trap for example to make the opponent move his king into check without him noticing it, not allowing for this seems to take something away from the game.

And I'm not arguing to make this rule as a standard, you may set up the moving under check as legal by default. I'm proposing the optional setting, that's up to help new players in awkward situations in game.

If it's not the default, the new player who finds the option would have an advantage over the one who doesn't find it. I want new players to feel welcomed, I don't want lishogi to appear elitist in any way, but I feel like moving into check is a fundamental part of the game.

As an alternative, you may not make a move under check illegal with immediate lose, but make the highlight for the opponent, that enemy's king is under check.

Yep, this was the intention - capturing all royal pieces wins the game, being in check or not doesn't matter.

[WandererXII]

Created a quick demo for testing various aspects of chushogi - https://lishogi1.org/assets/sandbox/chushogi/index.html Pay attention mostly to whether only valid moves are being generated; game logic - promotions, winning conditions, etc. and move notations. There might still be major bugs present. Pieces use Ryoko_1Kanji base and I just put kanji on top, might be changed before release. You can find shogiground and shogiops code used in chushogi branch in respective repos (https://github.com/WandererXII/shogiops/tree/chushogi, https://github.com/WandererXII/shogiground/tree/chushogi). I will let it sit here for some time to get some feedback and then I will start integration into lishogi.

[AlexGTrick]

As an alternative, you may not make a move under check illegal with immediate lose, but make the highlight for the opponent, that enemy's king is under check.

Yep, this was the intention - capturing all royal pieces wins the game, being in check or not doesn't matter.

I mean, the appropriate alternative which follows the goal I'm proposing is -> give any player a hint in the UI, when the opponent's royal piece is under check.

The point is to avoid missing of such a "trick". Definitelly, moving the only royal piece under check is not a part of a strategy, that's an blunder, and must be punished.

but I feel like moving into check is a fundamental part of the game.

No, it is not. Moving into check is a part of the game in the only situation, when you have two royal pieces.

The rest is just a historical absence of rule about checkmate. In historical games there were no problems with time to miss such opponent's blunder. In realities of today (online games with limited time control), I believe, the possibility to make such "trick" can spoil games. That's a bit unfair to players, who have advantage in the game surrounding the opponent's king by attacked fields, but who just don't notice such a dumb and bold move

[AlexGTrick]

Created a quick demo for testing various aspects of chushogi - https://lishogi1.org/assets/sandbox/chushogi/index.html

Wow, so quick! Well done! :+1:

[CouchTomato87]

Woah. That's a lot of work done already!

Where did you get the 1Ryoko pieces from? I wasn't aware pieces were already made. I suppose I should start working on an internationalized set?

[AlexGTrick]

I suppose I should start working on an internationalized set?

well, saying about internationalized set, I like this one from https://www.chessvariants.com/rules/chu-shogi

[PraseodymiumSpike]

You should probably have the Chu Shogi Renmei take a look at your implementation before you release it so they can test edge cases and stuff.

[WandererXII]

Woah. That's a lot of work done already!

Where did you get the 1Ryoko pieces from? I wasn't aware pieces were already made.

I stripped the kanji from the 1Ryoko piece set, that is used on lishogi and added the kanji on top of the base (wood). I did this since I needed something for testing, I believe this is okay with 1Ryoko copyright. Different pieces have different sizes, so I might have made a mistake somewhere with that.

I suppose I should start working on an internationalized set?

That would be great. I don't know when I will have everything ready, depends on how many things are wrong with the current implementation, but I plan/hope for second half of November.

[WandererXII]

You should probably have the Chu Shogi Renmei take a look at your implementation before you release it so they can test edge cases and stuff.

Good idea, I will wait a while, so people here can poke some holes into it and then I will try messaging them. There might be a language barrier present, that will make this a bit more difficult, but I will try.

[CouchTomato87]

Ngl, whatever font you used looks quite legit!

And the design process and drawing will take a while. I'll try my best to get them done by that time.

[AlexGTrick]

I mean, the appropriate alternative which follows the goal I'm proposing is -> give any player a hint in the UI, when the opponent's royal piece is under check.

hmmm, I checked out current implementation. When a royal piece is under check, it's highligted red, including cases when the players has moved it into a check. It's just what I wanted. good, thanks! :)

[WandererXII]

Ngl, whatever font you used looks quite legit!

Thanks, I tried several fonts, but in the end I used https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Yuji+Boku

And the design process and drawing will take a while. I'll try my best to get them done by that time.

Take your time, I don't want to rush you, my estimates always end up being a bit too optimistic after all, I still need to add support for chushogi into scalashogi and it's easy to get stuck on something, there is also probably still a lot of issues with the current implementation, so that will also take a ton of time... Thanks for doing this!

[WandererXII]

I mean, the appropriate alternative which follows the goal I'm proposing is -> give any player a hint in the UI, when the opponent's royal piece is under check.

hmmm, I checked out current implementation. When a royal piece is under check, it's highligted red, including cases when the players has moved it into a check. It's just what I wanted. good, thanks! :)

Glad to hear that:)

[AlexGTrick]

Horned Falcon by rules moves like a queen except the direction forward in which moves like a lion

missed horizontal ranged moves

[CouchTomato87]

Ngl, whatever font you used looks quite legit!

Thanks, I tried several fonts, but in the end I used https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Yuji+Boku

And the design process and drawing will take a while. I'll try my best to get them done by that time.

Take your time, I don't want to rush you, my estimates always end up being a bit too optimistic after all, I still need to add support for chushogi into scalashogi and it's easy to get stuck on something, there is also probably still a lot of issues with the current implementation, so that will also take a ton of time... Thanks for doing this!

All good. I might have to take my time anyways since I'm quite busy these days. One more thing -- do you have a preference for which piece base I use? I was thinking the main options were 1Ryoko versus the new engraved shogi_cz set. I think this is the only this matters, because once you start making a chuu shogi set, I feel like you'd never want to make another one again. XD

[AlexGTrick]

@daxx00 could you please check those points in the demo?

23. Lion VII.
24. Lion VII.2

I'm totally confused as I'm first time hearing about Okazaki rule from the JCSA.

I thought, if one's lion is captured by non-lion, it is illegal to immediate capture opponent's lion with non-lion, and doesn't matter, if it is defended or not.

[daxx00]

I believe the JCSA initially did not use the Okazaki rule, then used it for a while, then discarded it again due to opposition.

[WandererXII]

Horned Falcon by rules moves like a queen except the direction forward in which moves like a lion

missed horizontal ranged moves

Oops. Thanks, fixed now. Accidentally removed the ranks attacks while limiting the file attacks.

@daxx00 could you please check those points in the demo? 23. Lion VII. 24. Lion VII.2

I'm totally confused as I'm first time hearing about Okazaki rule from the JCSA.

I thought, if one's lion is captured by non-lion, it is illegal to immediate capture opponent's lion with non-lion, and doesn't matter, if it is defended or not.

You are right, wiki mentions it, but I don't see it mentioned anywhere else. Disallowed capturing lion (defended or undefended) with a non-lion piece immediately after your lion is captured by a non-lion piece.

[WandererXII]

All good. I might have to take my time anyways since I'm quite busy these days. One more thing -- do you have a preference for which piece base I use? I was thinking the main options were 1Ryoko versus the new engraved shogi_cz set. I think this is the only this matters, because once you start making a chuu shogi set, I feel like you'd never want to make another one again. XD

Hard to say, I used 1Ryoko, so maybe having another set use a different base might be better, in case someone doesn't like 1Ryoko, or you could use the base from some of the Intl sets. But not sure, up to you. It's 80 files so yeah definitely, a bit time consuming:D

For naming convention I just went with '0' for upward facing and '1' for downward facing pieces. After the name of the piece in uppercase separated from the number by '_'. So something like this: '1_GOBETWEEN.svg'. Here's the zip: Ryoko_1Kanji_alt.zip

[WandererXII]

I suppose I should start working on an internationalized set?

well, saying about internationalized set, I like this one from https://www.chessvariants.com/rules/chu-shogi

In the comments H. G. Muller says they are public domain. So I will definitely add them.

[daxx00]

I've had a little play around with the demo. Tested some things, certainly not all the items on my checklist, but a fair amount. The rules as written appear to be followed, as far as I've checked.

My main focus was on whether the Japanese notation was correct, since that's what I'd most likely be using. There are some cases where no convention exists, but we'll get to that later.

1. Where a horse could advance multiple sqares next to another horse, this should be disambiguated with 上 (instead of 行).
2. For moves where a dragon (A) on a non-adjacent file to another dragon (B) could advance forward to the same rank as dragon B, this should be disambiguated with 上 (instead of 行).
3. Where a lion/falcon is 1 square above another lion/falcon, and the move is to 1 square directly above the upper piece (also 1 sq directly below the lower piece in case of lion). There is no convention for disabiguating this move, afaik, but the demo does not properly distinguish (says 右上 no matter which piece moves there, 右引 in the case of a retreating lion). My suggestion is for the jumping piece to be referred to with 跳, the stepping piece with 直.

Apart from that, thought I'd get in my spiel about golds promoted from pawns. In modern shogi, this piece is called a tokin と金, because each of the promoted small pieces is written in a different font for the character 金, and the pawn (being the weakest) is written in the most cursive font, which happens to very closely resemble the kana と. The traditional chu shogi script for the promoted side of a pawn is exactly how it would look for a promoted lance 成香 in modern shogi, which looks nothing like と. Thus, I've never liked calling them tokins in chu shogi, instead referring to them simply as golds. For kifu and such, I mark them as 金 and disambiguate from normal golds as necessary.

[AlexGTrick]

I would like to prefer the annotation of tokins though. My argument: on real piece sets there is a と mark written, so why should we call them golds, if it's clear that it's tokin?

Yes, I'm too used to modern shogi :)

[daxx00]

I've yet to see a Japanese-made chu shogi set where the reverse side of the pawns looked like と. Below are examples of currently purchasable chu shogi sets.

中澤蛍雪作

熊澤良尊作

英月作

坂本作

[WandererXII]

I've had a little play around with the demo. Tested some things, certainly not all the items on my checklist, but a fair amount. The rules as written appear to be followed, as far as I've checked.

Thanks a lot for taking the time.

My main focus was on whether the Japanese notation was correct, since that's what I'd most likely be using. There are some cases where no convention exists, but we'll get to that later.

1. Where a horse could advance multiple sqares next to another horse, this should be disambiguated with 上 (instead of 行).
2. For moves where a dragon (A) on a non-adjacent file to another dragon (B) could advance forward to the same rank as dragon B, this should be disambiguated with 上 (instead of 行).

Fixed both 1 and 2.

3. Where a lion/falcon is 1 square above another lion/falcon, and the move is to 1 square directly above the upper piece (also 1 sq directly below the lower piece in case of lion). There is no convention for disabiguating this move, afaik, but the demo does not properly distinguish (says 右上 no matter which piece moves there, 右引 in the case of a retreating lion). My suggestion is for the jumping piece to be referred to with 跳, the stepping piece with 直.

Done, added - https://lishogi1.org/assets/sandbox/chushogi/index.html#26 Thanks for finding this.

Apart from that, thought I'd get in my spiel about golds promoted from pawns. In modern shogi, this piece is called a tokin と金, because each of the promoted small pieces is written in a different font for the character 金, and the pawn (being the weakest) is written in the most cursive font, which happens to very closely resemble the kana と. The traditional chu shogi script for the promoted side of a pawn is exactly how it would look for a promoted lance 成香 in modern shogi, which looks nothing like と. Thus, I've never liked calling them tokins in chu shogi, instead referring to them simply as golds. For kifu and such, I mark them as 金 and disambiguate from normal golds as necessary.

Interesting, Japanese notation now therefore uses 金, KIF uses 金将 - not sure about that, since here they use と金, but they also use と for gold promoted from pawns. I also replaced the 'tokin' pieces.

[WandererXII]

This should be allowed right? The current implementation allows capturing a lion on the second lion move only if we capture a piece (except pawn/go-between) or the lion is not protected. So this won't work now. But since the opponent's lion here is adjacent to the starting square of our lion we should be able to capture it?

[AlexGTrick]

This should be allowed right?

the general rule sounds:

The Lion cannot capture unadjacent protected Lion, unless if it is a second capture on this move, except the cases when the first captured piece is a pawn or go-between.

So, generally it should be allowed, however the person who would act so weird in game, must be clown, lol

[CouchTomato87]

Here's my draft of all the piece symbols. I show two versions of the Prince because they're competing -- but I'll probably go with the one on the right for style consistency with the king.

Let me know if anything should be changed, or if something seems out of place before I take the next big step of pasting them onto pieces.

[WandererXII]

Here's my draft of all the piece symbols. I show two versions of the Prince because they're competing -- but I'll probably go with the one on the right for style consistency with the king.

Let me know if anything should be changed, or if something seems out of place before I take the next big step of pasting them onto pieces.

Looks great! Really nice idea referencing in the design how the pieces move with the side and vertical mover, love the crab:D. I also really like the the bubbles above the elephant and how go-between and chariot reference pawn and lance. Kirin, eagle and falcon also looks pretty majestic. That was really fast, great work.

[PraseodymiumSpike]

I don't see why it's inappropriate. It's no more inappropriate than missing a mate.

On Sat, Oct 1, 2022 at 3:07 PM Alex Trick @.***> wrote:

It is perfectly legal to move a king or prince onto an attacked square, whether you have one or both of them. It's the player's task to make sure they keep their king safe, and if they make a mistake, it's up to the opponent to notice and capture their king.

Oh, I see. But in an online blitz game I insist at least on separate game setting to make moving the only royal piece under check illegal.

As I mentioned:

absolute inappropiate are the blitz situations, where someone moves his single royal pieces under check, and his opponent doesn't notice that, so the first player next move takes his royal piece away from check. That's quite a real scenario, if a "blitz" mode is actually byo-yomi play at 40 seconds per move, and players are not so experienced to remember all moves of all pieces.

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[daxx00]

I've been thinking about potential time controls. Chessclock: after main time has elapsed, each move is played on byoyomi. Stopwatch: time only runs down for full minutes of thinking time used per move.

Classic, chessclock: 81 to 120min. 1min byoyomi. Classic, stopwatch: 41 to 60min. Classic, increment: 40+60, 45+55, 50+50, 55+45, 60+40. Blitz, chessclock: 41 to 80min. 40s/50s byoyomi. Blitz, stopwatch: 21 to 40min. Blitz, increment: 20+40, 25+35, 30+30

To deal with the problem of players not being able to commit multiple hours at once, I suggest a method of adjourning games. The following rules would apply.

1. Either player may unilaterally (on their own move) adjourn the game, after at least 2 hours of game time has elapsed from the beginning of the current game session.
2. After clicking the "adjourn" button, the adjourning player must play a final move for the game session to stop their clock. This move should not be visible to the opponent until the next game session.
3. Once this move has been played, both players must agree on a time slot within the following 14 days. If no agreement can be reached, automatically set the start of the next game session to exactly 14 days after the start of the previous game session.
4. Players have a 5-minute grace period to show up for scheduled game sessions after an adjournment (absence results in forfeit). Once both players are present, the new game session should begin automatically, with the hidden move being played.

[AlexGTrick]

I don't see why it's inappropriate. It's no more inappropriate than missing a mate.

Chu Shogi is a quite complex game with its moves for beginners. If royal pieces weren't highlighted when under check, then I consider this as a bit abuse and unfair to the person, who won't notice the opponent's move under check. Especially sad is if this move under check is made consciously, in order to trick opponent and go away from the dangerous area. This is like "You didn't noticed that I moved a king under check, ha-ha fool, now I'm moving it away".

But since the attacked royal pieces actually are highlighted red, no problem appear.

[AlexGTrick]

Here's my draft of all the piece symbols.

Good job, I like it. Can you please display a full board with initial position with both promoted and unpromoted sides?

Looks nice, but need to see how it will look in flipped version.

[AlexGTrick]

The most controversal piece is the Whale. Check it out, how it looks flipped lol

I propose make a tail wide and with ribs on the tail highlighted, like that

The tail is actually important part of a mnemonic for Whale moves. Whale moves in range directions vertically plus diagonally backward - just like the large tail of Whale

but there is a problem xD for that the whale must be oriented head ahead and tail backward...

How about the Whale from the perspective of top?

[CouchTomato87]

Here's my draft of all the piece symbols.

Good job, I like it. Can you please display a full board with initial position with both promoted and unpromoted sides?

Looks nice, but need to see how it will look in flipped version.

Well like I said, I still haven't made the pieces yet... This was just the first part, making the symbols.

The most controversal piece is the Whale. Check it out, how it looks flipped lol

I propose make a tail wide and with ribs on the tail highlighted, like that

The tail is actually important part of a mnemonic for Whale moves. Whale moves in range directions vertically plus diagonally backward - just like the large tail of Whale

but there is a problem xD for that the whale must be oriented head ahead and tail backward...

How about the Whale from the perspective of top?

The whale is actually already mnemonic. When possible, the shape of my pieces point where they move (unfortunately, I was unable to do this for a lot of the animals in chu shogi because of their name and complex movement). But for the whale, it's one of the few that is:

[AlexGTrick]

3. Where a lion/falcon is 1 square above another lion/falcon, and the move is to 1 square directly above the upper piece (also 1 sq directly below the lower piece in case of lion). There is no convention for disabiguating this move, afaik, but the demo does not properly distinguish (says 右上 no matter which piece moves there, 右引 in the case of a retreating lion). My suggestion is for the jumping piece to be referred to with 跳, the stepping piece with 直.

Done, added - https://lishogi1.org/assets/sandbox/chushogi/index.html#26 Thanks for finding this.

How is about that case? :) @daxx00

[KY246]

If royal pieces weren't highlighted when under check, then I consider this as a bit abuse and unfair to the person, who won't notice the opponent's move under check. Especially sad is if this move under check is made consciously, in order to trick opponent and go away from the dangerous area. This is like "You didn't noticed that I moved a king under check, ha-ha fool, now I'm moving it away".

But since the attacked royal pieces actually are highlighted red, no problem appear.

I think that showing checks this way is much more unfair to the player who blundered their royal piece, who is now losing the game because the computer showed the other player the winning move.

Even in the case where a player purposefully sacrifices a royal piece, I think that it would be more fair to not display the check, so that the opponent is able to see or miss the sacrifice themselves, similar to how the computer doesn't tell a player if their opponent blundered/sacrificed a queen in chess.

[daxx00]

3. Where a lion/falcon is 1 square above another lion/falcon, and the move is to 1 square directly above the upper piece (also 1 sq directly below the lower piece in case of lion). There is no convention for disabiguating this move, afaik, but the demo does not properly distinguish (says 右上 no matter which piece moves there, 右引 in the case of a retreating lion). My suggestion is for the jumping piece to be referred to with 跳, the stepping piece with 直.

Done, added - https://lishogi1.org/assets/sandbox/chushogi/index.html#26 Thanks for finding this.

How is about that case? :) @daxx00

Hmm, I think if a lion/eagle/falcon doesn't capture anything on its first step, then makes a second step, that first step should be omitted from the notation.

[PraseodymiumSpike]

If royal pieces weren't highlighted when under check, then I consider this as a bit abuse and unfair to the person, who won't notice the opponent's move under check. Especially sad is if this move under check is made consciously, in order to trick opponent and go away from the dangerous area. This is like "You didn't noticed that I moved a king under check, ha-ha fool, now I'm moving it away". But since the attacked royal pieces actually are highlighted red, no problem appear.

I think that showing checks this way is much more unfair to the player who blundered their royal piece, who is now losing the game because the computer showed the other player the winning move.

Even in the case where a player purposefully sacrifices a royal piece, I think that it would be more fair to not display the check, so that the opponent is able to see or miss the sacrifice themselves, similar to how the computer doesn't tell a player if their opponent blundered/sacrificed a queen in chess.

Good Point. I agree.

[AlexGTrick]

Even in the case where a player purposefully sacrifices a royal piece, I think that it would be more fair to not display the check, so that the opponent is able to see or miss the sacrifice themselves, similar to how the computer doesn't tell a player if their opponent blundered/sacrificed a queen in chess.

I.e. you basically vote that abusing the moving under check is good. Moving the only royal remaining piece into check couldn't be classified as a strategy move, or a "sacrifice" unless it is intended to lose (but that case why don't simply resign the game?). That move is rather a "tricky", risky one. The intent is to rely on opponent's carelessness, thus if he misses a winning move - then the initiator makes a move that could turn the tide of battle.

I don't acknowledge that kind of moves, it is unsport ones. We're playing a chess-type games, not a poker one.

I think that showing checks this way is much more unfair to the player who blundered their royal piece, who is now losing the game because the computer showed the other player the winning move.

When you're defending, I believe you're responsible for the proper defence of your king, rather than the attacker, who should calculate regular attacking plan, which barely includes the final stage of the attack - checkmate itself. Usually the attack comes in a logic subsequency, from intermediate goals like breaking the front/flank, promoting pieces, dominating at strategic areas/lines etc, to the more final ones.

When an unexpectial king exposure into check occures there, it breaks the logical sequence of normal game line, and when that happens intentionally in the quite limited time control - that is surely a kind of abuse.

I believe, the player having advantage in the attack is not responsible for the necessarity to notice the opponent's trick of that kind in time.

[AlexGTrick]

Comparing the highlighting of blundered king to the blundered queen is totally dumb.

Chu Shogi is considered as a game of very close type to chess-family games, where the last thing is to move a king under check.

Different games have different rules. Some disallows going into ckeck. Others makes this move as an immediate loss. Another like Chu Shogi makes the game into "capture the king"-type game. But the main concept doesn't chenge - the going into check is considered as a bad, loosing move, thus making it the least expected to be performed.

Unlikely loosing and blundering the strongest pieces - that's a part of game, occuring ewerywhere.