Remove terrain modifier

[wzdev-ci]

keyword_terrain resolution_wontfix type_patch (an actual patch, not a request for one) | by Per

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Nobody will miss it, as nobody notices that it is there in the first place, since it only applies to wheels, and nobody uses wheels for very long in the game. Also, it does not (and never did) work for path-finding, so to take advantage of it you'd have to micro-manage your units intensely.

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Issue migrated from trac:3916 at 2022-04-16 10:50:58 -0700

[wzdev-ci]

Per uploaded file removeterrainmod.diff (7.9 KiB)

[wzdev-ci]

Reg312 commented

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does it mean now same speed of units on any terrain? 100% on any terrain?

as far i rememeber units affected by terrain modifier, but there was 'mistake' in speed formula which makes terrain modifiers working only for few designs.

i used terrain modifiers in my maps and mods (make ground with slow speed) also terrain modifiers was noticed in this forum thread by me: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9300&p=102039&hilit=speed+calculated#p101745

also can you point where terrain modifiers applied only to wheels? just dont see this place in code

[wzdev-ci]

Per commented

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I have not tested this much, but from what I understand, you hit the max speed almost all the time with everything except wheels, and so you have a lot of 'spare' speed to spend on negative terrain modifiers. Hence you will not notice them.

[wzdev-ci]

Kreuvf commented

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Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#3916 (comment:2):

I have not tested this much, but from what I understand, you hit the max speed almost all the time with everything except wheels, and so you have a lot of 'spare' speed to spend on negative terrain modifiers. Hence you will not notice them. But then the whole system of terrain modifiers should be fixed and not just removed.

The basic idea behind that (judging from what was not yet ready for WZ 2100) is that very different propulsions (skis, legs, jump-jets) also have noticable advantages/disadvantages on different terrains. So, wheels would probably be fast on streets, but get slowed down on ice/snow/mud. Deep grass (I know, we don't have it visually, use your imagination ;)) would be easier to cross by tracks etc. pp.

So, I would miss it, although I do not notice it right now (because it is not used or does not work correctly). So, please keep it.

[wzdev-ci]

Reg312 changed _comment0 which not transferred by tractive

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Reg312 changed _comment1 which not transferred by tractive

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Reg312 changed _comment2 which not transferred by tractive

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Reg312 commented

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Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#3916 (comment:2):

I have not tested this much, but from what I understand, you hit the max speed almost all the time with everything except wheels, and so you have a lot of 'spare' speed to spend on negative terrain modifiers. Hence you will not notice them.

agreed almost 1) "NTW maps" played with road terrain on whole map, and speed of units is noticeable, tracked python tanks is much better on NTW. (road terrain gives speed bonus) e.g. "cobra + medium cannon + halttracks" - this design very vulnerable to bad terrain

2) I think better is do adjust speed formula than remove terrain modifiers we have 50% free speed bonus to "light" designs and is bad behaviour (i suggest remove this bonus) i tested many designs. most of them receive speed bonus 50%, but not heavy cannon, not tiger body.

    // Wateremelon:applies the engine output bonus if output > weight
    if ( (asBodyStats + psTemplate->asParts[COMP_BODY])->powerOutput > weight )
    {
        speed = speed * 3 / 2;
    }

I suggesting point 2) because effect of engine upgrades also is not noticeable at all. you can remove them as terrain modifiers/

But if we do fix speed formula then both engine upgrades and terrain modifiers will do work. I mean: lets remove 50% speed bonus (or make it adjustable at least)

• i think before removing(keeping) terrain modifiers is better ask modders from forum, i think they can use this modifiers.

• problem with terrain modifers: even if you make them noticeble, it will be still 'invisible' for players (e.g. need show off-road speed in more correct way, show speed bars?..)

btw: waiting for some advice in irc about research.ini

[wzdev-ci]

aubergine commented

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It seems that at one point there was some indication of terrain modifiers, as the following icons exist in base/images/intfac:

image_des_crosscountry.png image_des_road.png

[wzdev-ci]

Reg312 commented

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Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#3916 (comment:5):

It seems that at one point there was some indication of terrain modifiers, as the following icons exist in base/images/intfac:

image_des_crosscountry.png image_des_road.png

In unit design screen we have 2 indicators: 1) road speed 2) off-road speed (acutally it is speed on sandy_brush terrain) player cannot see speed of tank on any terrain, except sandy_brush and road

[wzdev-ci]

vexed commented

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Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#3916 (comment:3):

Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#3916 (comment:2):

I have not tested this much, but from what I understand, you hit the max speed almost all the time with everything except wheels, and so you have a lot of 'spare' speed to spend on negative terrain modifiers. Hence you will not notice them. But then the whole system of terrain modifiers should be fixed and not just removed.

The basic idea behind that (judging from what was not yet ready for WZ 2100) is that very different propulsions (skis, legs, jump-jets) also have noticable advantages/disadvantages on different terrains. So, wheels would probably be fast on streets, but get slowed down on ice/snow/mud. Deep grass (I know, we don't have it visually, use your imagination ;)) would be easier to cross by tracks etc. pp.

So, I would miss it, although I do not notice it right now (because it is not used or does not work correctly). So, please keep it.

Seems like sane advice.

[wzdev-ci]

Per commented

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So which of you will rewrite path-finding? Because without doing that, terrain modifiers will just be a cruel joke - that is, if the max speed thing is changed so that terrain modifiers actually have any effect for most of the game. (And which of you will rebalance the game after changing the max speed rule? No, don't answer that until you've answered the first question.)

Seriously, how can you "miss" something that has never worked?

[wzdev-ci]

Shadow Wolf TJC commented

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Personally, I do make heavy use of terrain modifiers for Contingency, to the extent where it actually has a big effect on gameplay. This is especially due to how heavy more powerful turrets, such as Heavy Cannons, are compared to lighter turrets, how smaller the vehicles' engines are (especially in regards to higher-tiered bodies), and how the propulsion systems weigh differently compared to vanilla Warzone 2100 (with tracks being the lightest propulsion, and hover being the heaviest).

Granted, there was no way for me to apply modifiers to a unit's engine power based on their propulsion system, so I instead had to finagle with the weight system to get the desired balance between speed, firepower, and defense. Although, if anything needed to go from how unit speeds are calculated, then I'd nominate those multipliers from propulsiontype.ini and propulsiontype.txt for deprecation, since they are so obscure, poorly understood, and don't seem to work how you'd expect them to:

[Wheeled]
flightName = GROUND
multiplier = 80

[Tracked]
flightName = GROUND
multiplier = 80

[Legged]
flightName = GROUND
multiplier = 100

[Hover]
flightName = GROUND
multiplier = 120

[Ski]
flightName = GROUND
multiplier = 100

[Lift]
flightName = AIR
multiplier = 130

[Propellor]
flightName = GROUND
multiplier = 100

[Half-Tracked]
flightName = GROUND
multiplier = 80

[Jump]
flightName = AIR
multiplier = 200

[wzdev-ci]

Kreuvf commented

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Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#3916 (comment:8):

So which of you will rewrite path-finding? Just do not take terrain modifiers into consideration when finding a path? If I want to send my ultra-heavy tanks through deep mud alongside some hovers, that is my decision (although I will probably regret that ;D).

People will complain about this, but (as noted before also) that is mainly due to insufficient information. So, the GUI would have to be fixed.

Because without doing that, terrain modifiers will just be a cruel joke - that is, if the max speed thing is changed so that terrain modifiers actually have any effect for most of the game. (And which of you will rebalance the game after changing the max speed rule? No, don't answer that until you've answered the first question.)

Will a rebalancing be needed? I do not think so. The idea behind terrain modifiers (IMHO!) is that you can create maps/part of maps which have "different rules" from a "normal" (only one terrain type for the whole flat map) game. So, that would mean that you can create maps with advantages and disadvantages for certain unit classes.

We have that already, actually. Island maps are geared towards hover and VTOL.

Seriously, how can you "miss" something that has never worked? See comment:9. I can miss that, because it is something I planned to use in the future. And it does not even matter that I did not know that it did not work correctly ;D

[wzdev-ci]

vexed commented

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Yes, we don't have weighted paths at this time, however, that still don't mean it is useless.

It still is the only way to differentiate the differences in all the propulsion types that we have (By that, I mean a hover unit vs wheel vs track, and so on), and gives all map makers extra creativity and design choices.

If we just eliminate everything just because we don't have intelligent path finding seems shortsighted.

People just need to micro-manage areas to avoid "slower" tiles (like mud or whatever), if they want to.

[wzdev-ci]

Per changed status from new to closed

[wzdev-ci]

Per changed resolution from ` towontfix`