Tower attacking at beginning is a problem, prevent a real game

[wzdev-ci]

keyword_balance resolution_worksforme type_bug | by anonymous

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Some player do at game starting nothing else then researching the first mashingun tower then driving with construction units direct in enemy base and build the towers. So, no real game is possible.

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Issue migrated from trac:696 at 2022-04-15 18:58:30 -0700

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anonymous commented

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The first tower is MUCH stronger then first units.

[wzdev-ci]

Zarel changed milestone from unspecified to 2.3

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Zarel changed keywords from ` tobalance`

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Zarel changed status from new to accepted

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Zarel changed component from other to Data: Stats

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Zarel changed priority from major to minor

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Zarel set owner to Zarel

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Zarel commented

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A real game is very possible: Build your own towers, or rush tanks and kill the enemy's trucks before they can finish building their own towers.

Sure, the balance isn't perfect, but it's good enough.

[wzdev-ci]

anonymous commented

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It is not possible to build own towers (fast enough) because if you try to play a nomal game you start to build a factory. So you have spend money for it. You have not enough money to build as many towers as the aggressor, you lose. Furthermore you send your constuction trucks to the oil. So the aggressor has more construction units and build the tower much faster. (He will go with all construction units to your base). Finaly, the main problem is, he attacks you before you finish a factory. You have no tanks or something else to defend. (If you are realy able to build some tanks they have absolut no chance again the towers)

You can not defend yourself against this attack if you try to play "normal". You can only do the same.

Result: No normal game is possible. And more and more player do the same. Because you can only defend yourself against it with same tactic.

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anonymous _uploaded file Video_tower1.avi (4466.4 KiB)_

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anonymous _uploaded file Video_tower2.avi (4676.6 KiB)_

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anonymous _uploaded file Video_tower3.avi (4764.2 KiB)_

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anonymous _uploaded file Video_tower4.avi (1649.8 KiB)_

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anonymous _uploaded file Video_tower5.avi (3930.2 KiB)_

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anonymous _uploaded file Video_tower6.avi (3775.5 KiB)_

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anonymous _uploaded file Video_tower7.avi (1796.0 KiB)_

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anonymous commented

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Watch Videos. You can see that the enemy has absolut no chance.

The enemy tryes to build a base. He has no time to research the guns or defence towers.

If he is really fast enough to do so, the first tanks (Mashingun,Viper,Wheels) do not have the power to kill the towers.(Video Tower vs Tanks)

(In Video "Video_tower2.avi" he tryes to get research building to research the gun and defence towers. But he has absolut no chance to do it)

[wzdev-ci]

anonymous _uploaded file Video_Tank vs Tower.avi (4834.1 KiB)_

[wzdev-ci]

anonymous commented

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Thank you for accepting this ticket!

[wzdev-ci]

Per commented

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How about adding a "No rush in X minutes" option in the pre-game dialog, like Supreme Commander has? Where X can be, say, 5, 10 or 15 minutes.

This will at least make the rusher build towers just outside the perimeter. So maybe we also need an early game anti-tower weapon, something suitably slow moving that can allow you to reclaim areas of the map walled off early on by mg towers, something similar to the Protoss Reaver.

[wzdev-ci]

anonymous commented

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I don't see how this is a fault in the game. It's a legit way to win a multiplayer game, think of it like speed chess...

What I'm curious of is how will you fix this? Program in a rule that makes you unable to build towers for the first 30 minutes of a game? That will surely be very boring on the small maps. It's like Rage Against the Machine said - 'Know your enemy' :)

My opinion - as a long-time WZ fan - is that by implementing hard-coded rules against this you are actually taking away one of the versatilities of the game!

[wzdev-ci]

Zarel commented

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I have accepted this ticket because I do plan on eventually fixing the balance, but it will not be by making towers less powerful, nor by having a "no rush in first X minutes" rule.

Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:3):

Finaly, the main problem is, he attacks you before you finish a factory. You have no tanks or something else to defend. (If you are realy able to build some tanks they have absolut no chance again the towers)

You see, this only happens if you don't build the factory fast enough. And that will only happen on a very small map, or if he plays faster than you.

The tanks don't have a chance against the towers themselves, but they have a chance against the trucks, if they can attack before the towers finish building.

Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:6):

How about adding a "No rush in X minutes" option in the pre-game dialog, like Supreme Commander has? Where X can be, say, 5, 10 or 15 minutes.

Bad idea. It's just a hack to fix the symptoms of bad balance, not the underlying problem.

Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:7):

What I'm curious of is how will you fix this? Program in a rule that makes you unable to build towers for the first 30 minutes of a game? That will surely be very boring on the small maps. It's like Rage Against the Machine said - 'Know your enemy' :)

Towers are meant to be useful to defend yourself in the early-game; that's why they're so much more powerful than tanks. If you don't have towers, the early game becomes "throw MG tanks at your opponent; whoever gets luckiest wins". The towers are meant to add some element of skill before you get enough variety in researched weapons/structures.

I think the fix is to make towers slightly later-game than tanks, and give trucks an ability to impede enemy building (except base structures). But replacing the tower rush with a tank rush just isn't the right way to do it.

[wzdev-ci]

Andreas XXL commented

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Quote: "You see, this only happens if you don't build the factory fast enough."

You do not only need the factory to build tanks. You need the research building to research the first gun. And you need the main tower (this one which gives you radar) because without it, you can dot design the tankt. So you need 3 building to get the first tank. And this takes long time.

The tower atacker only needs one research building and 2 researchs. This is much faster.

"The tanks don't have a chance against the towers themselves, but they have a chance against the trucks, if they can attack before the towers finish building. "

Most maps start with 4 trucks. They build together a defence tower in less then 6 seconds. (And of course the trucks hide behind it). If 2 Defence towers are finished you can not get to the trucks without beeing killed. And you produce a tank one ofter the other.

I have a idea: If you can build the first tower only direct next to existing buildings the problem is no more. You can use them to defence your base. But you can not use them to attack. (The new problem is, that this is not part of warzone 2100, because the idea is to build buildings everywhere you want).

Perhaps you try to play again someone who use this tactic, to get own experience.

You are right, a solution now is not playing on maps with enemy next to you. (But most 2 or 4 player maps are to smal for it)

Onother solution is to start a game with existing base :).

[wzdev-ci]

Andreas XXL commented

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Quote: "and give trucks an ability to impede enemy building (except base structures)"

This is the best idea!

[wzdev-ci]

Zarel commented

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Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:9):

You do not only need the factory to build tanks. You need the research building to research the first gun. And you need the main tower (this one which gives you radar) because without it, you can dot design the tankt. So you need 3 building to get the first tank. And this takes long time.

It doesn't take that long. I'm looking into requiring the HQ for the tower, too.

Most maps start with 4 trucks. They build together a defence tower in less then 6 seconds.

No, most maps start with 2 trucks. If you have 4 trucks: 1. You're not playing an official map; blame the mapmaker for making an unbalanced map. 2. You should be able to build an HQ, Factory, and R Facility in that time, and get MG tanks, before your opponent's truck rush gets to you.

(And of course the trucks hide behind it). If 2 Defence towers are finished you can not get to the trucks without beeing killed. And you produce a tank one ofter the other.

With 1 truck? Or 2, if he's really risky and rushes both trucks? You should be able to swarm them, no problem. Insta-win!

Perhaps you try to play again someone who use this tactic, to get own experience.

I'm a pretty good Warzone player, and I've played plenty of games. I've won plenty of times against people who use this tactic.

[wzdev-ci]

anonymous commented

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Quote: "I'm looking into requiring the HQ for the tower, too"

Perfect idea. Then the tower attacker needs much more time.

And Quote: "and give trucks an ability to impede enemy building (except base structures)"

If both is implement, the problem is no more. Without getting new problems.

[wzdev-ci]

Andreas XXL commented

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I thought about this problem for a long time.

I think there is another good and simple solutions.

Solution: Make a condition that you need to build a factory a reasearch building and the HQ to build the mashingun towers. I think this is the best solution. Because you need all 3 building to build the first tank. So you have the towers and the first tank at same time. (No tank rush possible, because the towers are stronger and can be build fast.) And you have the first tank and you can attack enemy construction trucks if they enter your base. (Now no tower attack possible.)

I think this solution does not need as much code changes as giving the trucks the ability to impede enemy building. And it prevent new problems that might be there with the ability to impede enemy building that we perhaps do not think about now. Like defending the oil derreicks if 2 enemy trucks arrive there at same time.

[wzdev-ci]

Per commented

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If you can design tanks without a HQ, you can build tanks faster. This seems a better solution to me than requiring HQ for towers.

[wzdev-ci]

Andreas XXL commented

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Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:14):

If you can design tanks without a HQ, you can build tanks faster. This seems a better solution to me than requiring HQ for towers.

Thats equal in the result. If it is more easy to do, this should be done.

[wzdev-ci]

Andreas XXL commented

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But if only this is be done, you can build the towers faster then getting tanks because for towers you need only the research building and not the factory. So you need the factory requiring for towers to get them at same time as tanks. And if the factory is implemented as requiring for towers, it should be no problem to do it with the HQ too in short time I think.

[wzdev-ci]

anonymous commented

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I don't think you should change the whole game just because one guy got beaten in a multiplayer game. This game is like chess, and that's the beauty of it, one can risk everything for a quick kill of the other players - but if that first attempt fails then you lose. That's life! Please close this ticket.

[wzdev-ci]

Per changed status from accepted to closed

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Per set resolution to worksforme

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Per commented

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Please try 2.2.4 and see if the balancing modifications done in this release are sufficient. If not, raise the discussion again on the forum. Closing ticket.

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cybersphinx changed milestone from 3.0 to unspecified

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cybersphinx commented

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Milestone 3.0 deleted