Closed Smetannka closed 2 years ago
Next67
commented
2 years ago Переведи свой текст на английский язык, т.к. это основной язык проэкта и тогда разработчики его быстрее прочитают и поймут.
Translation: Translate your text into English, because this is the main language of the project and then the developers will read and understand it faster.
Tipchik87
commented
2 years ago lol
Tipchik87
commented
2 years ago Недоволен балансом? Сделай лучше, а не ори тут капслоком
P.S. Сам кретин!
Прекратите делать единоличный баланс от Tipchika. он ничего не тестит!!! И не играет нихрена, что бы что то менять в балансе!!!
- Пули в мультиплеере убили окончательно. Вся ветка теперь бесполезная, трата времени на исследования не приносит никакой пользы. Даже ветка АА стала бесполезной, когда можно получить АА от ракет и пушек значительно лучше. ХОТЯ НА АА ТРЕБУЕТСЯ МОРЕ ОТДЕЛЬНЫХ РЕСОВ НА ПРОКАЧКУ
- баланс крепостей. как можно вообще их фиксить и ослаблять, если крепости обязаны быть мощными и крепкими? И КРЕПОСТИ НЕ ЯВЛЯЮТСЯ ПРИЧИНОЙ НАЧАЛА АРТ ВОЙНЫ КАК ГОВОРИТ ОДИН КРЕТИН !!!
- НУЖНО РЕАЛЬНОЕ ОДОБРЕНИЕ ИГРОКОВ НА КАКИЕ ЛИБО ИЗМЕНЕНИЯ, А ТО ЕБАНУТСЯ, ОДИН СКАЗАЛ ДРУГОМУ ЧТО ТО ПОМЕНЯТЬ, ДА ЕЩЕ И НА ДОХУЯ И СРАЗУ ПОНИМАЕТЕ ЛИ - В НОВУЮ ВЕРСИЮ ПРИХОДИТ. ПРЕКРАТИТЕ ДЕЛАТЬ ИЗМЕНЕНИЯ БАЛАНСА МУЛЬТИПЛЕЕРА БЕЗ ТЕСТОВ И ОДОБРЕНИЯ ИГРОКОВ !!!
noccy80
commented
2 years ago Here is the google translation:
Stop making one-man balance sheet from Tipchika. he does not test anything !!! And does not play nichrome, that would change something in the balance!
Bullets in multiplayer killed completely. The entire branch is now useless, and wasting time researching is useless. Even the AA branch has become useless when you can get AA from missiles and guns much better. ALTHOUGH AA REQUIRES A SEA OF SEPARATE RESOURCES FOR PUMPING balance of fortresses. how can they be fixed and weakened at all, if fortresses must be powerful and strong? AND FORTRESSES ARE NOT A REASON FOR THE START OF ART WAR AS ONE KRETIN SAYS !!! NEEDS REAL APPROVAL OF THE PLAYERS FOR ANY CHANGE, OR FUCK, ONE TOLD ANOTHER THAT TO CHANGE, YES, AND ON THE DIRTY AND IMMEDIATELY UNDERSTAND WHETHER - IN THE NEW VERSION COMES. STOP MAKING CHANGES TO THE MULTIPLAYER BALANCE WITHOUT TESTS AND APPROVAL OF PLAYERS !!!
sentiment-bot[bot]
commented
2 years ago Please be sure to review the code of conduct and be respectful of other users.
sentiment-bot[bot]
commented
2 years ago Please be sure to review the code of conduct and be respectful of other users.
KJeff01
commented
2 years ago Warning: Epic long post.
MG works fine. If what you say is true I'd see nobody going to Twin-Assault gun and cyborgs would rule MP all day. People still use machineguns just as much as they did before.
The Hurricane line is very cheap and early to get which easily outperforms Sunburst and Cyclone with the Whirlwind upgrade. The notable difference here is the Hurricane line doesn't need 9 damage upgrades and 3-6 ROF upgrades to reach peak potential. Whirlwind, by this very fact, is still useful even in the presence of Tornado and even Avenger and really doesn't need more than half of its upgrades immediately to be useful. It may have diminishing returns for occupying labs in non-shared research, I'll give it that.
I think Cannon Fortress is fine as it is. If it is too powerful initially it can be moved a bit back in the tree but otherwise I have no opinion.
You may be astute to see Tipchik hasn't needed to do any grand amount of balance changes for several releases. This is cause he tests his stuff all the time, perhaps offline, but it doesn't matter so much in the face of debug tests that are 90% as good as any real battle can produce. Any tweaks he's done after are mostly rather small so this throws out the whole argument that y'all need hours of real battles to merge anything. Which, requires a HUGE amount of players to gauge, something that would take forever otherwise without a real release due to time. And with frequent releases I think it doesn't matter too much as tweaks can be released in a few weeks at the speed we are going now. And I seriously question the trust in participation as many people think mods are a sign of the host cheating to begin with. So I am suspicious of a few elite players injecting themselves into the process and that somehow fixes everything.
Everything works itself out, eventually. My opinion is that efficiency and estimation are more important than getting things down perfectly for everybody to enjoy given the sheer complexity of the multiplayer experience. Nothing would get done otherwise.
If balance really were as bad as you say, there would be much, much, MUCH more posts in Discord (and there are some very skilled players in that server who do give feedback) and in GitHub. Concerns would have been plastered about this and that being broken months ago. If anything, this proves my point.
That said, Tipchik has a vision none in the community cared to try. I see nobody else for many years attempt to do balancing and attacking those who did try is counterproductive. These past releases were only a mere pipe-dream for many people in the past who wished to do exactly what is being done now.
Now, the core argument is that Tipchik shouldn't decide everything as the all powerful balance God of Warzone 2100. And to that I say, yes, of course. But, without meaningful engagement of people in the community, other than the occasional thumbs-up and thumbs-down besides Discord posts, I'd say for the record that part of the equation is certainly missing even after releases. And now I have come full circle and just reiterated Tipchik's main complaint: Few actually care enough to voice any opinion or participate. To which I relegate such inaction as either indifference or not alarming enough to upset them.
Complaints in private fall on deaf ears.
BTW: Max says you have an unhealthy obsession with him. That you stalk him on voice chat. He won't tell you, maybe cause he dislikes conflicts, but just know he is annoyed with you greatly for harassing him all the time and it stresses him out, and it makes him seethe with rage, as he tells me. For months. He personally doesn't mind what Tipchik is doing nor cares all too much about balance opinions.
Autumn-sadness
commented
2 years ago Im agreed with smetanka and I have next opinion for this situation: before adding balance changes, a lot of players need to test it in different maps like low-mid-high oil maps for analysis, but now most often only one player makes changes and he does it like this: "I want to see new plasma artillery and I want to play with fair artillery that I will buff it, I dont care about other multiplayer because I play once a month". I cant say anything about the current balance but Im sure that nerf the fortress is a full mem, fortress should be fortress, now it will be destroyed by 5-7 shoots of groundshakers. nothing [SP]
Evolution01
commented
2 years ago I agree with smetanka and nothing [SP]. Their opinions should be considered. Every balance change must receive positive feedback from many players before being merged by 1 person. BRO★Evolution₉₂
past-due
commented
2 years ago I think there may be some confusion, so I'd like to clarify a few points:
So if you have feedback regarding balance, please:
Let's please keep this about the game, which we are all clearly passionate about and want to be as great as it can be. 👍
On that note, here are some outstanding balance change proposals. Please comment on your thoughts on them in each PR:
Note: It's more helpful to post a comment as to why you either agree or disagree with a change. (Example: How it'll impact a particular low / high oil game or style of play, or issues versus another stat / weapon / etc, or specific concerns.) The more details you can provide, the better we can evaluate the impact of a proposal.
To further help, we have the Balance tag for issues / PRs. We will endeavor to make sure any raised issues / proposed changes are tagged with this so you can easily find them.
KJeff01
commented
2 years ago I agree with smetanka and nothing [SP]. Their opinions should be considered. Every balance change must receive positive feedback from many players before being merged by 1 person. BRO★Evolution₉₂
Yes, I agree with this also. It may be lost in my rambling.
Sometime people will need to get together and iron out some kind of guidelines for future balance proposals.
maxsupermanhd
commented
2 years ago Problem is not that something is "set in stone" but that it will remain in the game until next version. I can understand this not "in stone" if we would have mainstream balance updated every day (separate from game itself) but still we are relying on "base" game that is being updated not frequent enough to say that changing/reverting certain things will be fast. Everyone remembered how MG was overpowered for many weeks and it was a real issue for literally everyone. At least Russian community does not want same situation to happen again and here is a feedback for such one-person changes. Problem with proposals is that they are merged without community feedback that is necessary to understand game impact. Everyone here have different opinion and different viewing angle to the game. Single person or even 2 people can not decide what is a good change and what is not. Replays, Autohoster games or comments from other people must be provided in my opinion in order for proposals to be even remotely close to be merged.
Smetannka
commented
2 years ago I want to clear things out: Earlier many people told Tipchick in teamspeak what aspects of balance should be changed, it was told based on experience of many games. We asked not to make critical changes in balance of certain weapons. Many times we told him not to change parameters by a huge numbers. Tipchick did not listened to us! Tipchick heard only "make changes" and did what he wanted! From his mind! Without testing! He is really not playing! He never tests, he plays other games. I think Kjeff is not right telling that he sees Tipchick in-game all the time. We as a community, who sees Tipchick more - know better what and when he does what. Also I want to notice existence of "language barrier". For Russian players and community it is difficult to navigate on GitHub and express their opinion. Maintainers want to use English in order to simplify things and keep everything in one language but for other people it is difficult. I believe that you (maintainers) are incorrect, all the time you say that you want more opinions on GitHub from players. Think about it. Construct questions as such so people who know very little of language can understand it too and express their opinion here - on GitHub.
-- Written by Smetanka, translated by MaX
past-due
commented
2 years ago One possible guideline that's been suggested and discussed, which I'd like to reiterate again here, is an option for capping the degree of change in stats between individual releases.
As you noted, @Smetannka, it's sometimes large changes that are causing disruptive differences between versions. Shifting stats in certain directions is probably easier and more pleasant for players if the change is kept limited at each step. And it gives a better chance for players to provide feedback on unintended consequences of increasing or reducing specific stat parameters.
What I'd like to propose is a general guideline that:
(Unless there is some obvious issue that there is widespread agreement on fixing.)
If there's a desire / argument to shift a stat by more than that, it would happen across multiple releases.
This would give plenty of time for feedback and evaluation among the entire player community, and ensure that the balance changes in any individual release are "adjustments" and not large / massive changes.
Additionally, it would be helpful to have an easier, pre-generated way for players to test the latest balance proposals / changes before a release, possibly integrated into the game.
So on a particular release, a host could choose between "Release Balance" (the built-in MP balance stats for that release) or "Upstream Balance" (the master branch WIP balance that will become the next version's balance).
Iluvalar
commented
2 years ago 25% is unacceptably high. I'd say 10% is a HUGE massive change.
I fixed the last 20% imbalance in the bodies back in 2011 :https://github.com/Warzone2100/warzone2100/commit/71eac1c4a332be3af4ab8c9bc4cafd65dabe7f13#diff-a34f34fc7d5e9ee2227359e2d0595a0875d1386dbd909df62cf23578e309e94c
If there are still 25% balance to make... the balance team as been doing a bad job lately.
Tipchik87
commented
2 years ago I want to clear things out: Earlier many people told Tipchick in teamspeak what aspects of balance should be changed, it was told based on experience of many games. We asked not to make critical changes in balance of certain weapons. Many times we told him not to change parameters by a huge numbers. Tipchick did not listened to us! Tipchick heard only "make changes" and did what he wanted! From his mind! Without testing! He is really not playing! He never tests, he plays other games. I think Kjeff is not right telling that he sees Tipchick in-game all the time. We as a community, who sees Tipchick more - know better what and when he does what. Also I want to notice existence of "language barrier". For Russian players and community it is difficult to navigate on GitHub and express their opinion. Maintainers want to use English in order to simplify things and keep everything in one language but for other people it is difficult. I believe that you (maintainers) are incorrect, all the time you say that you want more opinions on GitHub from players. Think about it. Construct questions as such so people who know very little of language can understand it too and express their opinion here - on GitHub.
-- Written by Smetanka, translated by MaX
Before you accuse someone, first think, what have you done for WZ during the whole time of the game? Or do you want to say that the balance of version 3.1.5 was better than now? If so, I have bad news for you. When KJeff and I started making changes to the game balance at the time you didn't play and didn't show up on TS for months or even half a year. Now you came and I still have not heard a word in TS from you are not satisfied or at least what you need to change and in what direction. You came and instead of doing something yourself you go to Max. There's nothing difficult to write a message and translate it into English by pressing the "copy" and "paste" keys in any translator that are on the Internet a lot, but you're still asking Max to do it - this is ridiculous (-- Written by Smetanka, translated by MaX)
I'm glad that some players from the RU community, judging by the comments here, finally started to be active in the discussion and not just put "thumbs-up" or "thumbs-down". From now on if you want to change something in the game balance, you'll have to write about it here or in Discord in the "mp-balance" chat in English. And from now on I will no longer create (offer) any Pull Requests even if you ask me to do so.
maxsupermanhd
commented
2 years ago I am sorry, watch your mouth Tipchick, no one here is forced to contribute and pointing at people who are not contributing to balance aspect of the game by opening pull requests is disgusting. Providing constructive feedback and playtesting is much more important than editing a file. Don't mix me in there, I can provide my translation for every member of RU community just because I don't like Russian written issues on GitHub. I respect rules of platform, not abuse them as you do.
Iluvalar
commented
2 years ago I changed my mind. Let's take a look at the difference between a Viper light cannon and a viper rocket pod.
Light cannon dpm = (35-10 armor) 62% accuracy + 18 splash 20/min = 670 damage per minute Rocket pods dmg = (22 -10 armor) 42% accuracy + 0 splash 60/min = 302 damage per minute
I get that the pods have 1 tile more range 7.5/8.5 but the million dollar question is who gave the light cannon viper 380 hp and the rocket pod viper 160hp ?
a cannon viper can literally 2v1 pods. Is it the intended behavior ?
KJeff01
commented
2 years ago I get that the pods have 1 tile more range 7.5/8.5 but the million dollar question is who gave the light cannon viper 380 hp and the rocket pod viper 160hp ?
The HP of Light Cannon and Rocket Pod were pretty much cemented in around 2010. So about 11.5 years ago when 3.0 just started going through beta releases and the 2.x series was gaining its last point releases. https://github.com/Warzone2100/warzone2100/commit/582962732dc2eb2863885997fca6b5f11654e08e
So quite a while, to answer your question. This discussion can continue in a separate issue, however.
Tipchik87
commented
2 years ago I am sorry, watch your mouth Tipchick, no one here is forced to contribute and pointing at people who are not contributing to balance aspect of the game by opening pull requests is disgusting. Providing constructive feedback and playtesting is much more important than editing a file. Don't mix me in there, I can provide my translation for every member of RU community just because I don't like Russian written issues on GitHub. I respect rules of platform, not abuse them as you do.
There was no need to point at me and post angry comments. Whether I play or not is my business. Nothing would have happened to the balance of the game. In vain Mr. Smetanka made this circus here. Without your angry comments and already have someone to affect the changes. And I'm also amused by expressions like: "I want to see new plasma artillery and I want to play with fair artillery that I will buff it, I dont care about other multiplayer because I play once a month. I wonder who has such a rich imagination.
Next67
commented
2 years ago In my opinion, changing the balance is a delicate job that needs to go through LOTS of checks and tests. 2-3 upward fingers are not enough to infuse the change into the main version. There were a lot of code points in the teba version of the game, we looked for bugs and found a lot of unbalanced changes. Unfortunately, there are very few players who test this and even fewer who install the master version.
Therefore, I suggest that any balance changes should be taken with a detailed explanation of the reason for this change from SEVERAL good players (beginners cannot even win an easy bot - they do not know anything about the balance).
I like the option, the ability to play with the test balance in the main versions, but it requires many aspects to be reworked. I would be glad if the ability to play on the main version was added with balance changes from the github without unnecessary mods, by simply switching between the installed in the game and updated automatic.
KJeff01
commented
2 years ago The long term goal is the ability to download balances from in-game, whenever that time comes to pass.
I think this topic has served its purpose, more or less.
Прекратите делать единоличный баланс от Tipchika. он ничего не тестит!!! И не играет нихрена, что бы что то менять в балансе!!!