Diplomacy between natives

[NoFreeUsernameDammit]

This is one thing that's been bothering me a lot. Natives generally don't fight or deal with each other, and are generally quite passive. Historically, it was not the case-most early conquests by Europeans were "divide and conquer" style, using alliance with natives and their wars, Cortez's conquest of Aztecs being one of most prominent examples. Right now, natives are quite passive, and to be honest, very easy to deal with.

So the proposal is this: make natives much more numerous, but with preset diplomatic bonuses and penalties toward each other, encouraging alliances and wars. The penalties would probably have to be generated during world generation, after placing the natives, based on their proximity. There should also be events related to this-natives requesting or providing aid in war, and so on.

Edit: sorry for asking this way, how can I put labels to the issue I started? Can't find it anywhere.

[Nightinggale]

It's an interesting idea to have natives fighting each other. It opens up for a lot of new possibilities regarding strategies. However I fear it could end up with the natives killing off each other and you as a European will get a half empty continent for the taking with no diplomacy or conquest. In other words it could open up the gates to severe balance issues.

[NoFreeUsernameDammit]

I agree, though that way it's not much worse than the way natives are now. I don't know how about you, but by mid-game, I have natives split into two groups-exploit and exterminate, and it's just a matter of taking down the second group faster than AI does. Natives stop being an obstacle by the time you can afford an artillery or two for walled settlements, around four units of line infantry and some fodder like native mercs or conquistadors to soften them up. And a couple of scouts who got some XP from ruins and act as medics.

I wonder if native AI could be set to send smaller parties against natives than it does against European players, that would certainly help them handle native wars without exhausting themselves.

A related idea, IMO the game needs events that give natives some guns and horses, even if player does not sell them, for obvious reason (I sell them only rarely, either to the natives that I've fully converted and consider allies, or those far away engaged in a war with european AI). I've tossed it before on RaR forums and got response that it's impossible to make evet for native AI, but perhaps it could be made as event for european player. Something like this:

"The King has decided to sell the surplus supplies from the recent conflict in New World, and requests you to aid his appointed emissary."

Options: "Certainly." -gold, +relations with king and one native tribe, +xxx guns and +xxx horses in two villages of the above mentioned tribe (some events apparently give ssome cargo to native villages, so I presume it is possible) "Trading on our land? Tax him to the hilt" +gold, +xxx guns and horses in two native villages, -1 relations with king "Arming those savages? We can't allow that, they'll use the guns against us. Confiscate them." +xxx guns and horses in your colony, half as much in one native village, -2 relations with the native tribe and king "It is not our concern, let him find his own way" +xxx guns and horses in one village, -1 relations with king And a similar with independent trader, changing relations to european AI instead of king.

[devolution79]

I have long wanted to boost \ beef-up the natives. They're such an important part of the gameplay and should not be irrelevant by the late mid-game.

89 should help quite a bit with regards to ensuring that the indians do get access to muskets and horses.

In addition, I'd like to see the following happen:

• Natives should ally together if the Europeans attack them, maybe even forming a permanent alliance
• Consider allying with an AI European rival by forming defensive alliances against the offending player.
• Issuing ultimatums and then declaring war if not satisfied
• Not giving give up their last village if culturally overwhelmed and instead consider a last all-out war against the offending player instead, even if relations are good. (Survival takes presedence over niceties)

[civplayer]

@ErikSandbraaten Is there a way you think to improve this issue by coding. The fourth bullet to me is one of the greatest aspects of the game. To me it is so often immersion/game breaking when natives just give away their land. There should be true consequences for expanding into their lands (even if peacefully). I think that should be a major if not the focus of modding improvement. Natives need to be bigger actors

I think also in most random maps there should be more native american villages to begin with

[alexandr-]

So the proposal is this: make natives much more numerous, but with preset diplomatic bonuses

I like that very much, altough it is already hard on some maps to settle without huge conflicts and then having to fight one or even two powerful tribes will be very hard.

However I fear it could end up with the natives killing off each other and you as a European will get a half empty continent for the taking with no diplomacy or conquest. In other words it could open up the gates to severe balance issues.

Or more interesting on the other hand a very powerful tribe that conquered half a continent?

Also i like the idea of mercinaries suggested here: https://github.com/We-the-People-civ4col-mod/Mod/issues/89#issuecomment-422909797

Maybe slightly off-topic but in relation to "conflict reduced settling": Recently i witnessed that you will return land to a native tribe when forming an aliance. The game mechanic of cultural expansion is justified to issue conflict, but how about an option to limit your expansion around native settlements. And also as an option to return land if you sue for peace. The natives would still be critical of you but now that they have their land back you are not such a danger on their way of living.

[orlanth]

How about being able to remove some of the hardcoded nerfs from vanilla (e.g. “native Yield destruction” function and other economic limitations, borderlessness etc) or allowing these to be set on or off by Civeffects? In 2071 mod I effectively removed many of these, making them start out primitive and backward in technology but with some potential to develop & progress. It certainly made them a lot more relevant throughout the mid and late game (and even a playable option for players wanting to try a unique challenge!) May not be for everyone, but I think simply the option to inactivate some of the vanilla native nerfs through XML would be a great modding advancement!