New Nightmare Thread

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shapechange: Since the old one got ridiculously clogged, this is a chance for the GMs who voted to keep Nightmare Team (<@334136126745083907>, <@234474456624529410>) to find some way to improve it, else we'll just delete it and be done with the matter.

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e_thsn: <@&1045732542399131769> who actually wants to keep reaper out of us and who is willing to rework it out of us?

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captainluffy: What's this new role

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captainluffy: I mean pingable role

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mctsts: rebrand of the old one

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mctsts: I think the points luffy brought up are definitely worth considering

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mctsts: If we take out the targetting we get a mostly coherent role

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mctsts: It will be left with 2 pretty reasonable abilities: • Turning people sleepless • Gaining abilities connected to the dead

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mctsts: Your main issue is that these two still aren't connected

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mctsts: Here's a suggested change to resolve this:

If a Killing role dies, the Reaper may kill If an Investigative role dies, the Reaper may investigate If a Recruitment role dies, the Reaper my recruit If any other role dies, the Reaper may turn 1 player sleepless

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mctsts: All powers are connected and very simple now

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mctsts: Additionally, now Misc/Group will do something once again

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captainluffy: That works actually

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captainluffy: And it's just 1 ability

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captainluffy: Only concern is it might be too weak but otherwise not really any issues I think

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mctsts: Here's a rewrite with some further adjustments

Reaper | Solo Killing - Nightmare Team | Limited Basics The Reaper wins when all players are dead or sleepless. For each player that dies, the Reaper may use a power, corresponding to their role's category, to turn another player sleepless. Details The Reaper starts out sleepless and shares a channel with other members of the nightmare team.

At the start of every night, the Reaper will be informed of what powers they will be able to use. This depends on the categories of the roles of all players that have died since the start of the previous night. Each of the powers the Reaper may use is immediate and will turn the target sleepless, however for some categories there are additional effects. For Killing roles the additional effect is an attack, for Investigative roles it is a role investigation, for Recruitment and Align roles a player may be converted into a spirit. All other role categories have no additional effect and just turn the target sleepless.

Sleepless players are not aware of being sleepless, however when one of them uses a power (except for targeting) on the Reaper, their power fails and the Reaper immediately attacks them.

The Reaper is affected by all disguises, obstructions and redirections.

If no members of the nightmare team or channel remain all players are no longer sleepless, however they are not informed about this.

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mctsts: (for reference, this simplified version results in a description that is several hundred characters shorter than Flute Player)

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mctsts: I applied the following changes: • Remove the targetting power • Remove the "turn 1 player sleepless each night" power • The Reaper now starts out sleepless • Win condition changed to "dead or sleepless" • The Reaper now shares a channel with the nightmare team (previously missing from desc) • Any ability the Reaper uses will turn their target sleepless ‣ For all but Kill/Invest/Recruit this is unchanged ‣ For Kill this doesn't do much - if the target dies they're dead anyway, otherwise its a slight buff ‣ For Invest it makes the option better, previously it was sort of the worst option ‣ For Recruit it changes nothing, except a technicality as it makes Spirit's sleepless - hence the change to also make Reaper sleepless, making it consistent with how hell works • The Reaper no longer sees the roles of the dead (its a power I dont find to be super necessary, and felt appropriate to take out, especially with some slight power increases in other places) • The Reaper's kill is now immediate (consistency with all other reaper abilities) • The Reaper is now universally affected by redirections (moved the affected by disguises/obstructions/redirections out of the Invest power and made it general)

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mctsts:

Here's a rewrite with some further adjustments

Reaper | Solo Killing - Nightmare Team | Limited Basics The Reaper wins when all players are dead or sleepless. For each player that dies, the Reaper may use a power, corresponding to their role's category, to turn another player sleepless. Details The Reaper starts out sleepless and shares a channel with other members of the nightmare team.

At the start of every night, the Reaper will be informed of what powers they will be able to use. This depends on the categories of the roles of all players that have died since the start of the previous night. Each of the powers the Reaper may use is immediate and will turn the target sleepless, however for some categories there are additional effects. For Killing roles the additional effect is an attack, for Investigative roles it is a role investigation, for Recruitment and Align roles a player may be converted into a spirit. All other role categories have no additional effect and just turn the target sleepless.

Sleepless players are not aware of being sleepless, however when one of them uses a power (except for targeting) on the Reaper, their power fails and the Reaper immediately attacks them.

The Reaper is affected by all disguises, obstructions and redirections.

If no members of the nightmare team or channel remain all players are no longer sleepless, however they are not informed about this.

<@234474456624529410> <@544125116640919557> opinions on this version?

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mctsts: (i did more changes than just stated before)

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captainluffy: personally i would put each poiwer type in a separate line for better readablility

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captainluffy: but the inert sleepless power seems like a good change

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mctsts: Splitting the powers into separate sentences and lines makes the descriptions pretty clunky

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captainluffy: immediate kill is cool too

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e_thsn: I like it

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e_thsn: It just has one overall connected power

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e_thsn:

Here's a rewrite with some further adjustments

Reaper | Solo Killing - Nightmare Team | Limited Basics The Reaper wins when all players are dead or sleepless. For each player that dies, the Reaper may use a power, corresponding to their role's category, to turn another player sleepless. Details The Reaper starts out sleepless and shares a channel with other members of the nightmare team.

At the start of every night, the Reaper will be informed of what powers they will be able to use. This depends on the categories of the roles of all players that have died since the start of the previous night. Each of the powers the Reaper may use is immediate and will turn the target sleepless, however for some categories there are additional effects. For Killing roles the additional effect is an attack, for Investigative roles it is a role investigation, for Recruitment and Align roles a player may be converted into a spirit. All other role categories have no additional effect and just turn the target sleepless.

Sleepless players are not aware of being sleepless, however when one of them uses a power (except for targeting) on the Reaper, their power fails and the Reaper immediately attacks them.

The Reaper is affected by all disguises, obstructions and redirections.

If no members of the nightmare team or channel remain all players are no longer sleepless, however they are not informed about this.

Failed attacks turn the player sleepless right?

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mctsts: yes

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alphaviki: Roleinvestigations will also turn them sleepless then, correct?

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e_thsn:

Roleinvestigations will also turn them sleepless then, correct?

Yep

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alphaviki: Cool! Ngl, this rolerework looks awesome! Has the spirit of old reaper, but is also a lot more straightforward.

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e_thsn: That was my issue with old reaper it had sleepless as a separate mechanic to its other abilities

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mctsts:

Here's a rewrite with some further adjustments

Reaper | Solo Killing - Nightmare Team | Limited Basics The Reaper wins when all players are dead or sleepless. For each player that dies, the Reaper may use a power, corresponding to their role's category, to turn another player sleepless. Details The Reaper starts out sleepless and shares a channel with other members of the nightmare team.

At the start of every night, the Reaper will be informed of what powers they will be able to use. This depends on the categories of the roles of all players that have died since the start of the previous night. Each of the powers the Reaper may use is immediate and will turn the target sleepless, however for some categories there are additional effects. For Killing roles the additional effect is an attack, for Investigative roles it is a role investigation, for Recruitment and Align roles a player may be converted into a spirit. All other role categories have no additional effect and just turn the target sleepless.

Sleepless players are not aware of being sleepless, however when one of them uses a power (except for targeting) on the Reaper, their power fails and the Reaper immediately attacks them.

The Reaper is affected by all disguises, obstructions and redirections.

If no members of the nightmare team or channel remain all players are no longer sleepless, however they are not informed about this.

<@&1045732542399131769> a revamped version of Reaper, based on luffy's analysis of the role and ethan's problems with the role + some of my own simplifications.

With this the powers of Reaper are flattened/combined into a more coherent power.

Here's a list an explanation of all changes I did:

• Remove the targetting power - this is the most disconnected power and is overly complicated. • Remove the "turn 1 player sleepless each night" power - this is instead merged into the reaper main abiltiy, see below • The Reaper now starts out sleepless - a change due to technicality, this is the same way hell works, see below • Win condition changed to "dead or sleepless" - due to the point above • The Reaper now shares a channel with the nightmare team - this was previously missing from the description • For any dead player the Reaper may now turn a player sleepless, and apply an additional power depending on the role category: ‣ For Killing roles it may immediately attack ‣ For Investigative roles it may do a role check ‣ For Recruitment roles it may turn a player into a spirit ‣ For other categories, the player is turned sleepless only • The Reaper's kill is now immediate (consistency with all other reaper abilities) • For the Recruitment option, the recruited player would now be sleepless - thus the changes to win condition and making reaper sleepless • The changes to the using abilities power makes it a more connected and coherent power. Furthermore by taking out the sleepless power and merging it into this ability, another weird ability the reaper hat tacked one gets removed. • The Reaper no longer sees the roles of the dead (its a power I dont find to be super necessary, and felt appropriate to take out, especially with some slight power increases in other places) • The Reaper is now universally affected by redirections (moved the affected by disguises/obstructions/redirections out of the Invest power and made it general)

Should we revamp Reaper this way?

✅ Yes ⛔ No 🤷 Abstain

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e_thsn: <@242983689921888256> one suggestion I have is that exorcist can't remove sleepless from a member of the nightmare team otherwise D0 they could check someone as nightmare/not nightmare by exorcising them

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venomousbirds: im still all for deleting reaper

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venomousbirds: as this is yet another change (while it looks doable and pretty good) and that means reaper yet again works different

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venomousbirds: which was the original argument for deletion

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venomousbirds: its changed so often that it gets confusing

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e_thsn: It doesn't work different just removes all the extra abilities

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venomousbirds: which means it works differently

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venomousbirds: see <#584793703923580965>

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venomousbirds: i used the old reaper for my example before alpha pointed out that 1: theres a new reaper and 2: it works differently

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venomousbirds: removing abilities means it works differently

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venomousbirds: this immediately proves my confusion point too

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e_thsn: I would also like to delete reaper but since it was one of the most requested roles for rework we can't go against what people want

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venomousbirds: (i wasnt pinged because i dont have the committee role)

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venomousbirds: we can with good argument

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venomousbirds: we dont have to accept every role

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e_thsn: Yeah idk why you don't have it, ig Ts couldn't assign it cause you're bth admin

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venomousbirds: he can assign it

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venomousbirds: you could probably assign it