Monarch Discussion Thread S11G4

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: For discussing the pros and cons of Monarch.

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shapechange: <@489047121840963585>

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alphaviki: So I found it very annoying to work with monarch this game and I don't think I like to play with the role in it's current iteration. I'll try to summarise my criticism in a few key points, highlighting the pros and cons of the current role. Also one thing that annoyed me, just turned out to be the bot adding a random vote later, but I cannot foresee yet if it would be an actual issue in the future, but more on that later.

Pros:

• As others pointed out already, it did indeed bring a lot of discussion into day 0 and night 1, making them important for gameplay and at this point in the game I cannot check this yet, since I am only recluse, but I assume it reduced the number of random targeting and kills, but I'd need to check it after the game
• It is unique in the design and plays very different then other elected roles

Cons:

• It is an incredibly complex role. From it's abilities alone, it rivals in complexity some of the very complex non-electable roles and is multiple times as complex as the other electable roles. You have the monarch themselves, then you have the person they can knight, which gives an extra vote. Then they also can elect an heir, but that is secret, so once the monarch dies, they continue to exist in the background, knighting people. Thankfully we played this game with monarch being always public (which I did forget earlier, but that also goes to show, how many details you need to remember about it for an electable)
• It's early introduction to each game does raise the information and activity level, but it also destroys the "difficulty curve" of the game: Before monarch, the games start simple and slow, everybody would make their plans little complex, then the midgame would be very complex with scheming and trying to figure out as much possible which then leads to the endgame where all plans play out and everyone tries to play their last trump card, most roles are known and it is down who played better in the earlier phases. Now though you are hit in the face with an absurd amount of possible info, which has large ramifications, especially when it comes to claiming. Normally the claiming would start with or after the mayor, so you have time to plan and set up strategies, but the early electable forces you to come up with claims earlier. Furthermore the existence of the heir and knighted player forces you to get even more information to trust, nailing down on how much you can and need to do.
• The monarch role in itself isn't necessarily very powerful, taking out of account the possibility to still keep existing in the background and making votes completely unpredictable for anyone but the team with the monarch, since the others can't know if the monarch is even in the game and who is knighted. But the necessity to create claims for the role makes it incredibly disruptive to the earlier gameplay and I personally found it very confusing and also demoralising if you didn't come up with anything in time or you couldn't get all the info on d0, it's just all a bit much.

This is all I can remember at the moment. Playing wise I found the role and implications difficult to grasp. Whole roles could build their strategy around this electable and it forced questions about other roles that you wouldn't ask before, like me asking if assistant could target themselves. (Which can be a good or a bad thing, although I do like that you can approach it from a very unique angle.)

All in all I find the role very akward to work with and demoralising and it did I think negatively impacted my game experience and I would prefer in the future to not play with this role, at least in it's current iteration.

There are a few things I can see which can begin to fix it, like streamlining the subroles and combining knight and heir or removing the heir mechanic completely, at least making who is the new monarch public is a good step. Simplifing the role would go a long way. It is way to complex in my opinion for an electable role.

[CrowdfordBot]

alphaviki: (Sorry for a) the long paragraph and b) if I misunderstood something or misread about the role. As I said it is very complex)

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shapechange: the heir mechanic isn't really removable (otherwise monarch would just die N1 every game, basically).

i could see removing knighting and having the monarch be the one who has the vote addition/negation, i think that would simplify things. it would also make secret monarchs (the heirs who inherit) more findable.

i really don't think the role is as complex as you're making out, i think it's just new. it's just "knight one person each night, choose an heir to be monarch when you die". corrupt wolf is probably more complex, and corrupt wolf isn't complex. that doesn't mean it shouldn't be simplified, i think having the monarch be the one with the knighted powers does "neaten" the role, but "incredibly complex" is a weird take, imo.

you say you like having more discussion D0, but dislike that the difficulty is increased. i don't think those two things are separable. if you want discussion D0, then you need to add something new, and that something new will increase the difficulty. it does force wolves to have an idea of claiming strats earlier, but that's something that will become easier as the meta develops, and probably improve the game and wolves' chances in the long run. (also, i'm not sure i agree with your analysis of the game difficulty curve. i would say in general that the early game (D1 - N2 - D2) is the hardest, but it massively varies between games.)

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: the problem i noticed with monarch this game is that it's actually probably way better for a town monarch not to choose an heir unless they have another confirmed town. wolves benefit from monarch significantly more than town do, really.

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alphaviki: I do agree that a part of the frustration might come from it being new to play with. The reason I find it more complex, than for example cw is because: You can check that there is a cw with an investigative role or the rolelist or the reporter info, with monarch being incognito, you can never know for sure it is gone, except via the votes, but then it is often too late. Also I feel like it being so early in a game adds to the complexity. Additionally, yes I appreciate a more active d0, but I felt this was a little too active, but trying to recollect more of the information I do think it wasn't as bad as I remembered. When it comes to complexity though I think all electable, although sometimes complex in consequences like reporter, can be easily broken down into a few words:

mayor: needs to survive ; benefits during votes reporter: get all the info on dead roles guardian: make people not die

But for mayor I couldn't do that, my best try would be: extra vote for someone you need to trust, but be aware on who to trust

Being able to simplify it as such does make a role easier to grasp quickly and better make plans with it. For monarch, with all it's subroles there are too many buts to make a quick decision and a lot more room for error. It's just a little janky to handle. In it's succession mechanic it feels a little like amulett bearer, but with one or two more steps. With amulett you need to think of: Who do I want to protect (or if you are the bearer who to kill) an error is not incredibly big, since it will need to get passed on again and it is only a passive ability you can inherit. With monarch you give an active ability to give someone an extra vote, which can be big, but doesn't have to, but the simple fact, that succesion is permanent until death and people try to play optimal forces everyone to bend their gameplay more around that role. Writing this I do realise though, that doing this is in part the point of electables, but I feel like my point still stands that the role still feels too janky to properly fit in that spot yet.

Me personally I never found D1 particulary hard, since you often are just looking for someone to not die. You have a couple of people claiming, but there aren't as many bad consequences as with for example a reporter vote + you have a day to prepare, which I feel like for me is a hugely important thing (although I do see it is difficult to bring into unison with the idea of more active earlier phases) and not everyone will feel the same.

I also do agree with your last point I agree with and it feeds I feel like into what makes the role complex for me. You feel pressured into choosing one, because otherwise a big point of the electable is lost, although you might not want to. Therefore you need people to trust (or how to fake it), therefore you need a strategy and so making the role more complex, like you have the complexity of aquiring the role and keeping the role within your team and for the other people to make sure both works in their favour.

[CrowdfordBot]

mctsts:

the problem i noticed with monarch this game is that it's actually probably way better for a town monarch not to choose an heir unless they have another confirmed town. wolves benefit from monarch significantly more than town do, really.

Yeah, heiring should probably be forced

[CrowdfordBot]

mctsts: So a possible simplification could be that it chooses a heir who also gets the knighting power

[CrowdfordBot]

mctsts: The only potential issue is that then it would probably be a one time forced choice

[CrowdfordBot]

captainluffy: but is a knight usually an heir

[CrowdfordBot]

mctsts: Well we'd remove the whole knighting thing

[CrowdfordBot]

mctsts: It's just the heir who gets the extra vote then

[CrowdfordBot]

mctsts: It's not like vote manip must be connected to a knight

[CrowdfordBot]

e_thsn:

So a possible simplification could be that it chooses a heir who also gets the knighting power

monarch can only knight and if they die the last knighted player is promoted?

[CrowdfordBot]

mctsts: Well i would use only heir terminology instead of only knight terminology

[CrowdfordBot]

mctsts: https://github.com/WerewolvesRevamped/Werewolves-Roles/pull/1351 PR for the following:

• merge heir and knight for role simplification
• make selecting an heir a forced action

please review