Lone Wolf => Wolf & Lone Warlock => ??

McTsts commented 3 years ago

This was previously discussed but not resolved. It was previously suggested that the Lone Wolf turns into a Wolf if they join the pack and that the Lone Warlock turns it a plain non-lycan wolf ("coyote"?)

McTsts commented 3 years ago

Everyone has a different opinion on this so we have failed to resolve this issue for v13.

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

I think no option really makes sense for Lone Warlock, because Lone Warlock itself doesn't make any sense. Lone Wolf is a Wolf that's alone and basically becomes a Wolf later on. Lone Warlock is not a Warlock that's alone, it's actually exactly the same as Warlock until it joins the pack (so arguably it's less lonely than normal Warlock), however the Lone prefix is probably still better to keep than not, because it means LW and LWa have a shared part of their name for their shared ability. I don't think any change of LWa into another role except for Warlock would really seem logical, and changing to Warlock obviously makes no sense. When Lone Wolf changes into Wolf it doesn't really change what the Lone Wolf is (they're still a wolf, just not lonely anymore). Changing the Warlock part of the name doesn't really make much sense either: When the Lone Wolf becomes a Wolf they don't really lose their killing ability - they just share it with the other wolves now, the same can't be said for the Lone Warlock. Even if Lone Warlock was renamed to Lone Something and then turned into a Something when they join the pack, it now wouldn't make any sense for them to lose their ability. Conclusion: none

Edit: I guess my actual conclusion is that while LW=>Wolf would make sense, adding that would mean we should also have LWa=>sth for consistency, but there's nothing that would make sense there, so unless someone has a great idea we should probably do neither

Shepherdwhen commented 2 years ago

I think no option really makes sense for Lone Warlock, because Lone Warlock itself doesn't make any sense. Lone Wolf is a Wolf that's alone and basically becomes a Wolf later on. Lone Warlock is not a Warlock that's alone, it's actually exactly the same as Warlock until it joins the pack (so arguably it's less lonely than normal Warlock), however the Lone prefix is probably still better to keep than not, because it means LW and LWa have a shared part of their name for their shared ability. I don't think any change of LWa into another role except for Warlock would really seem logical, and changing to Warlock obviously makes no sense. When Lone Wolf changes into Wolf it doesn't really change what the Lone Wolf is (they're still a wolf, just not lonely anymore). Changing the Warlock part of the name doesn't really make much sense either: When the Lone Wolf becomes a Wolf they don't really lose their killing ability - they just share it with the other wolves now, the same can't be said for the Lone Warlock. Even if Lone Warlock was renamed to Lone Something and then turned into a Something when they join the pack, it now wouldn't make any sense for them to lose their ability. Conclusion: none

Edit: I guess my actual conclusion is that while LW=>Wolf would make sense, adding that would mean we should also have LWa=>sth for consistency, but there's nothing that would make sense there, so unless someone has a great idea we should probably do neither

W could rename Warlock to something like "Palm Reader" or "Astrologist" since it is an evil Fortune Teller then that opens up La => Warlock

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

This doesnt solve the argument that the LW doesnt truly lose his killing power. Wolves in the wolfpack kill by deciding together, the Lone Wolf is alone so he decides alone. When they join the pack they still kill, just in combination with the wolfpack. (Also I think renaming Warlock is a bad idea)

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

Lone Warlock -> Psy Wolf?

Shepherdwhen commented 2 years ago

This doesnt solve the argument that the LW doesnt truly lose his killing power. Wolves in the wolfpack kill by deciding together, the Lone Wolf is alone so he decides alone. When they join the pack they still kill, just in combination with the wolfpack. (Also I think renaming Warlock is a bad idea)

Ok that makes sense, the only solution I can think of is that the lwa joins the pack as a wolf if it is attacked by the pack, kind of like how cc works except its only a role change not an alignment change

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

Ok that makes sense, the only solution I can think of is that the lwa joins the pack as a wolf if it is attacked by the pack, kind of like how cc works except its only a role change not an alignment change

Well it's not the Lone part that needs changing, the Lone just means that it joins pack after the first pack member dies

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

Lone Warlock -> Psy Wolf?

I guess that would make sense? Unsure if we want to do that though.

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

This doesnt solve the argument that the LW doesnt truly lose his killing power. Wolves in the wolfpack kill by deciding together, the Lone Wolf is alone so he decides alone. When they join the pack they still kill, just in combination with the wolfpack. (Also I think renaming Warlock is a bad idea)

Ok that makes sense, the only solution I can think of is that the lwa joins the pack as a wolf if it is attacked by the pack, kind of like how cc works except its only a role change not an alignment change

The problem this issue is trying to resolve is that Lone Wolf & Lone Warlock (and possibly also foxes) should change role when joining the pack (without any other changes to mechanics). The actual problem is that for Lone Warlock the role change doesn't make much sense.

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

It's currently what makes the most sense, but it's also weird because Warlock and Psy Wolf check in different ways. It's however not consistent with what Lone does (Lone Wolf doesn't get their own personal kill once they join the pack, why would Warlock still be able to check?) That's probably what the thought process behind LWa => Wolf was

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

Making a mid-game role named Pack Warlock would be an interesting solution It'd be similar to Pack tanner in that it's not a lycan but is still in the pack

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

LWa => Wolf might be better than any other solution. It's the most basic solution we could do and it doesn't overcomplify it. It doesn't really make complete sense from a certain POV (a lone wolf is just a wolf thats lonely, him turning into a wolf from lone wolf doesn't change what the wolf is from the POV where you assume the roles are real. it's just a wolf that stopped feeling lonely; a lone warlock changing to a wolf would be an actual physical transformation - the warlock isn't a wolf (is he just a man supporting the wolves?) which makes less sense), but changing to a Coyote (non-lycan wolfpack member) or some of the other previous suggestions make just as little sense in that way.

(^ typed before the latest new reply)

Pack Warlock would pretty much cover all the issues (it's not a physical transformation, just a change to the state of the role) and it doesn't lose its power. It would be significantly more powerful than the current version of the role, but I think this isn't necessarily bad.

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

I would make a PR but idk how to add roles

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

You navigate to the folder you want to add it in (I guess Limited) and click "Add file" (top right)

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

probably doesnt make much sense as limited, since LWa isn't limited either

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

It could be a werewolves/transformation role (i.e. a role that can only be obtained by another role transforming into it mid-game) or a werewolves/investigative

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

definitely transformation, you can only obtain it midgame, i dont intend for it to be an in-pack invest (could be changed later if people really want to)

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

yeah I think that makes sense. the new LWa would already be powerful as is, no need to have it in the pack immediately

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

I can't add a file 🤔

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

Maybe some permissions are wrong, but try this:

Go here: https://github.com/McTsts/Werewolves-Roles/tree/main/werewolves/transformation
Click "add file", then "create new file"

1) name the file "pack warlock" 2) put the description 3) select create new branch 4) name the branch (e.g. "add pack warlock") 5) click the green button

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

oops

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

that was a direct commit not a PR

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

thats why i oopsed

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

there's no easy undo, you can delete the file manually and try again

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

You can switch branch by clicking here or by selecting it in the dropdown on the main page. Then you can browse the repo and do further changes on the branch

rupertandrosy commented 2 years ago

I understand the whole 'why would a warlock turn into a wolf lol' jig, but I think the role is fine as it is, to be honest. It's a really easy way to give wolves a balanced investigative especially in smaller games where pack might suffer from thinner ranks. The proposed Pack Warlock change would make it much more powerful and would remove what I believe to be a key role for smaller games. There is some current overlap with CF, but CF is imo quite a bit stronger, and so if LW was changed in this, there'd still be that gap. PsyW is meanwhile much weaker.

Ultimately, names are just names - do they really have to make sense down to the tiniest detail?

McTsts commented 2 years ago

I think LWa just changing to Wolf would also be fine

McTsts commented 2 years ago

Or we can preserve the old LWa behavior in a different way

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

I think we're probably better of not doing this? We also have Tracking Wolf now for pack WI as well. Or we go back to the alternative where we have a generic lycanless pack member (e.g. Coyote)

venomousbirds commented 2 years ago

added future version to this so we can maybe discuss it later

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

Lone Wolf => Retired Wolf Lone Warlock => Retired Warlock

:)

ThomasRubycrust commented 2 years ago

to be more logical Retired Wolf maybe couldnt attack :)