Role Suggestion: Hells Merchant

[ThomasRubycrust]

See discord

[rupertandrosy]

i like the concept behind the role (encouraging soulselling more) but i only see recipients using the deal if they're sure they can get themselves attacked as a way to kill merchant, which would be really easy for almost anyone past D1 except other solos. thus, i think merchant would either never use/always cancel their contract, or just die immediately

[McTsts]

I think this may depend on the role list. Town can only really do that if they have an Assassin

[rupertandrosy]

or a cult, or a witch. still, it's far riskier than, for example, chef sending evil food, which is almost never done. there just doesn't really seem to be an equal payoff for the merchant to take the considerable risk.

[CrowdfordBot]

Alphaviki: Hmm about the arguments that it is risky for the merchant: It would mean that town is wasting a night where they could have killed someone else to kill a miscellaneous solo. Yes they have little defence mechanism, but they are also not very dangerous to town, unless they message your kill target. But I can see if you only have one scum to kill it is a good choice and are especially vulnerable early game. Maybe the merchant could also reveal the identity but not the role of their killer to the hell team. This makes them more potent early game and has a weaker effect late game. But I don't know if that makes the merchant too powerful again 🤔

[McTsts]

Town often cant afford to care about how important their target is, often its just better to attack any guaranteed scum over a potential townie

[ThomasRubycrust]

This could work in a game without an active TK power (so no Assassin, Cult or Priest). Then town can't use it just to kill the merchant, wolves I think would rather kill a townie than a hell team member and for solos it would probably work anyway. Also would the Merchant be able to use souls?

[ThomasRubycrust]

A single kill role like Witch may be a threat, but it may also not be worth it for town. Also that kill might already have been used up somewhat early.

What might be more of an issue is that this just results in deaths by wolves easily. You'd pick the people that think they may be attacked.. however for them its also likely to actually be attacked. Wolves dont really need to think about it all too much. If they want to kill X, but X might be protected its still better to attack X anyway, after all they might not be protected and even if they are it still at least kills an enemy.

[McTsts]

This role actually must be unable to use souls, otherwise they'd always have a soul for defense from trading defense for a soul...

[CrowdfordBot]

Alphaviki: Yeah, tbf I even wrote that in the original suggestion xD

[CrowdfordBot]

Alphaviki: What do you think about the second part of my suggestion to help protect it by giving hell team the identity of the killer?

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: I didn't see that anywhere before

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: that could balance it, maybe

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: Maybe if hell learns the role & name of the player responsible?

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: i still think this role is rather flawed, but I'm not typing out my explanation again

[CrowdfordBot]

Ethan.: I have a suggestion for a minor hell role

The succubus

Targets a player to sleep with each night, like the hooker, however if their target is attacked, if they're also still soulless, the succubus will automatically protect their target at the cost of their soul

[CrowdfordBot]

Ethan.: I just added this here because this is the discussion for the second hell minor role

[McTsts]

I don't really see how this would be particularly useful for the hell team? Also we already have Bat as a solo role that is based on Hooker.

[CrowdfordBot]

Ethan.: Oh right I forgot about bat existing

[McTsts]

shapechange: i still think this role is rather flawed, but I'm not typing out my explanation again

Well I think the thought is that if hell learns who's responsible people might not be so eager too try to get the Merchant killed.

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: in that case i just don't see them really using it?

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: actually nvm maybe they would you're right

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: no this does make the role a lot better

[McTsts]

And then of course the Hell team also is guaranteed to have an extra soul if the HM power was used, so they're definitely in a situation where they could afford a revenge kill.

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: i should add that I don't think HM should have a whisper channel like wager

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: the merchant offer target should just be told they've received the offer, and then can accept or decline it in their sc

[McTsts]

There can be an offer channel without whispers

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: yep

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: Do we want to turn this into a PR?

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: sure

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: Oh, I don't think we had a name for this?

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: oh we did not that is true

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: i mean we could call this one the Grim i guess

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: I mean that's still very much basically a wolf

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: i mean i agree

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: At that point Cerberus would probably be better

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: you were the one who suggested it sounded like a hell role iirc

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: (though the power doesnt really fit)

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: What

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: I did not, I thought you did

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: maybe something to do with gambling? like the gambler

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: bc gambling is a SIN

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: That doesn't sound like a hell role at all to me

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: <:babagun:720984498874875935>

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: Our Hell team isnt really connected to sinning

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: i mean fair enough

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: you come up with a name then 🙂

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: cerberus 🙂

[CrowdfordBot]

shapechange: i think we should save that name for a role that it actually makes sense for 🙂

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: uh Charon, "if you give me your soul ill ferry it into the underworld, if your body keeps living thats not my problem"

[CrowdfordBot]

Ts: what exactly does the role do again