remove allowing breast with nipple in public worlds

[alexderpyfox]

Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.

because it is uncomfortable for people and it probably isnt 16+ to have that in public worlds

Describe the solution you'd like

it to be removed

Describe alternatives you've considered

i already send a email to steam support asking if resonite allowing this in public world means it needs a 18+ clasification

Additional Context

https://discord.com/channels/1040316820650991766/1189734382173438054 link to the form multiple other people stated they dont feel comfortable with the boob with nipple rule in public worlds and suddenly people making boob hangout worlds that because its popular also end up as the top world you probably know more exact how many dont like it from reports

[Mrdabup]

We already talked about this in discord, moderation already said their side, you shouldn't be opening a github issue on an issue that already got solved:

Furthermore, a moderator on the discord server has already stated multiple times that you already got your response:

[Mr-CostlessClaw]

This was created to show how many people do not agree with this. I am not going to recommend this game to friends I have been trying to move over and friends I like to explore this platform. There are other users who also do not agree.

[alexderpyfox]

[alexderpyfox]

not my idea to make a github about it

[ghost]

I want to feel safe in Resonite again.

[ProbablePrime]

I've informed moderation of the existence of this issue.

Additionally a GitHub issue to discuss and collect feedback on this is ok, this type of GH issue is used for users to ask for changes and this is exactly what Alex is asking for.

I'd like to see feedback from users here and discussion, do keep in mind our guidelines though. I also can't promise a decision either way. But feedback on this matter is appreciated and ok to be here.

[ImErinTheBunny]

I agree completely. I don't see the point to allowing them in the first place, I think it was a bad decision. I understand that the team wanted to be more inclusive or whatever but in reality, I don't think that is the outcome. In my experience, there are literally only two times that nude breasts come into play and that is either a new player importing an avatar or people being horny in public instances. The avatar issue is not a problem, that issue gets resolved fast usually. Being lewd in public instances is unsettling for people (its often viewable in the world browser, the world that caused this GH issue being a prime example, so it's not just local to the world instance) and gives Resonite as a whole a bad name.

[ultrawidegamer]

This guideline needs to be revised because it exposes nudity to minors and causes discomfort among many community members. The issue arises from individuals creating public worlds that display nudity without consent, and there is currently no way to prevent it from appearing in the active sessions tab.

I have a deep appreciation for Resonite as both a game and a community. It has been a source of happiness for me in the past, and it would be unfortunate to tarnish that experience. Such concerns might drive not only me but also other players to explore alternative platforms that prioritize addressing community concerns.

[alexderpyfox]

[Sharkmare]

Nipples are not inherently sexual. Neither female nor male nipples. The only reason some regressive areas view the female nipple as more sexual is because women themselves in those areas are viewed as a sexual things. It is directly based in objectification of the female form, I see no reason why anyone should be pandering to this. If you personally do not like something people are doing, just dont engage with it, exactly like ANY other thing that is allowed that you may not like.

As for the issue of "16+" Rating..... yeah no nudity is literally allowed under that label the Guidelines of Resonite are actually more restrictive than the age rating.

In essence, either All nipples are bad or no nipples are bad.

[ShrikeAlvaron]

I do see where the concerns over all this come from; the intent of allowing them is for gender equality as topless men are generally considered just fine. However, there's is the greater moral and societal implications to consider here. There is already the tendency for Resonite to be considered as a "lewd" platform and sexual activity is discussed often in relation to the game; having things that are typically regarded as obscene to some extent publicly viewable in open, public worlds and the world browser can just worsen this view of the platform.

That said, I do understand and support the desire for equality in representation which led to the rule being as it is. Perhaps there is room for nuance here, where such avatars remain allowed, but attention is turned to how public worlds are shown in the world browser, perhaps with moderation reviewing rules for the naming and thumbnails of public sessions.

[gameboycjp]

My opinion that if something's banned on female presenting avatars, the rule should be consistent and apply to all avatars. Having it limited to one makes the rules unclear for how they apply people who fit somewhere between the two.

[Zandario]

One big issue to me is content creators and especially streamers, I'd rather not make it a big risk for them to make content here, even if we're technically safe and fine to do this. We still should have functionality to hide dubious (as in rules varies in place to place, so unsure if it's fine) or disliked content.

I'm all for allowing this stuff, but personally I feel like we should get some content tagging first.

I know Froox talked about it before (don't know if he made an issue on it yet, can't find it)

essentially being able to hide slots labeled a certain predetermined tag ~~not to be confused with slot tags~~

[Sharkmare]

One big issue to me is content creators and especially streamers, I'd rather not make it a big risk for them to make content here, even if we're technically safe and fine to do this. We still should have functionality to hide dubious (as in rules varies in place to place, so unsure if it's fine) or disliked content.

I'm all for allowing this stuff, but personally I feel like we should get some content tagging first.

I know Froox talked about it before (don't know if he made an issue on it yet, can't find it)

Content tagging would definitely be great for this, both to hide things and potentially trigger replacements. Fore example swapping between featureless and nippled versions for those who do not like them

[Alecksohs]

One big issue to me is content creators and especially streamers, I'd rather not make it a big risk for them to make content here, even if we're technically safe and fine to do this. We still should have functionality to hide dubious (as in rules varies in place to place, so unsure if it's fine) or disliked content. I'm all for allowing this stuff, but personally I feel like we should get some content tagging first. I know Froox talked about it before (don't know if he made an issue on it yet, can't find it)

Content tagging would definitely be great for this, both to hide things and potentially trigger replacements. Fore example swapping between featureless and nippled versions for those who do not like them

I had mentioned this in the previous threads about the issue, creating a content tagging system is the best solution in the short term, with a longer term solution being able to be made less hasty.

[ikanimew]

Content tagging is a great idea for this. That said, whatever does happen with this, we should either keep things as they are (because nipples aren't sexual) or we should ban them for all avatars, regardless of whatever they're presenting as.

[Frooxius]

Just chiming in on the content tagging - this is not a quick short term solution.

It's quite complicated feature that needs a lot of careful planning, engineering, implementation and subsequent support.

It brings more issues too - how do we ensure people tag content properly, how do we handle when they don't and so on.

It's a complex feature, so it would not be viable for a short term solution - we can't implement it that quick - at least not well.

For the purposes of this discussion, consider it as something that will come down the line.

[Alecksohs]

Content tagging is a great idea for this. That said, whatever does happen with this, we should either keep things as they are (because nipples aren't sexual) or we should ban them for all avatars, regardless of whatever they're presenting as.

Just call it "featured partial nudity".

[JackTheFoxOtter]

We had a big discussion about this back in the day. Ultimately, the issue was that we wanted to not have any gender specific discrimination. It was basically, either block all nipples, or block no nipples (because prior, female nipples were a no-go, and male nipples were fine, which wasn't very inclusive).

The decision fell on allowing all because nipples themselves aren't really a sexual thing by default. Keep in mind that any sexualized content / behavior is against the guidelines regardless of what the nipple rule is.

If this does get changed, all nipples should get considered NSFW, regardless of male or female. Although personally I don't think this is an issue.

[JackTheFoxOtter]

Also, do keep in mind that you're always allowed to and encouraged to add your own rules on top of the platform guidelines in your own sessions, as long as those rules aren't conflicting with the platform guidelines. So when you're streaming as the example that was brought up earlier, you can enforce a stricter dresscode in your sessions.

[Enverex]

Neos had a reputation as "that furry sex game". This ruling is definitely not going to help Resonite avoid ending up with the same reputation.

Also, do keep in mind that you're always allowed to and encouraged to add your own rules on top of the platform guidelines in your own sessions, as long as those rules aren't conflicting with the platform guidelines. So when you're streaming as the example that was brought up earlier, you can enforce a stricter dresscode in your sessions.

This won't stop you seeing them in world previews, which in turn could result in knock-on effects (e.g. get you kicked off Twitch).

[shininghero]

This is a complex and situationally dependent issue, muddled further by international cultural differences and high tempers by some commenters. Remember, the purpose of a debate is not to win or lose, it is to enlighten those involved so they can make more informed decisions.

This won't stop you seeing them in world previews, which in turn could result in knock-on effects (e.g. get you kicked off Twitch).

Like this. I had not considered ripple effects like this, reaching out and affecting individuals far beyond the scope of ones current session.

Without this, I would not have known about the SessionCaptureThumbnailSource component, or considered making a tool to easily resolve that aspect of this debate.

[AegisTheWolf]

Neos had a reputation as "that furry sex game". This ruling is definitely not going to help Resonite avoid ending up with the same reputation.

Also, do keep in mind that you're always allowed to and encouraged to add your own rules on top of the platform guidelines in your own sessions, as long as those rules aren't conflicting with the platform guidelines. So when you're streaming as the example that was brought up earlier, you can enforce a stricter dresscode in your sessions.

This won't stop you seeing them in world previews, which in turn could result in knock-on effects (e.g. get you kicked off Twitch).

Commenting that the world browser is a concern for users is valid feedback for moderation to consider. Attributing this guideline to sexual content is not seeing the point to the guidelines in the first place as it refers to non sexual context of nipples being equally allowed to promote equality, inclusivity, and we are against discrimination. The guidelines specify sexual contexts of this is prohibited in public worlds (same goes with other body parts or any subject of the matter in a sexual context). Also a slippery slope logical fallacy isn't constructive criticism when not bringing valid concerns about the platform as a whole as guidelines/policies, moderation. and presenting the platforms goals and values to the public gets a more clear picture.

To clearly state my personal opinion, if 3d modeling software, game engines, animation software, painting software, can be used for sexual contexts and still be used as a tool for commercial, medical, and educational purposes and not attributing them to "just a thing to make sexual content with", then why cant people use the platform in that context In the way that would fit our guidelines as we strive to make it as flexible as possible to exist without harming others and being compliant to regulations/laws?

[navy3001]

Fun fact, the USA has several laws stateing that female breast are illegal to be shown publicly. And while the game is based in the EU, they still have to obay the laws in other countires if they wish to operate there. Example, War Thunder is based in Russia, but they must remove the nazi flag (WW2 game) Because germoney and a few other contries they play have it banned. If they wanted to have the flag (Which they used in WW2 on there war machines) Then, said contries would ban war thunder from being played. If this issue is not fixed, if resonite gets VRC level big, I can see resonit ending up being banned in some places, like the USA. VRChat isn't, because they have the rule stateing nudty is privet only (including female breast) And if you see any in public, report for banning.

[LydiaWhyte]

so your saying nipples should be banned cause there seen as sexual content? what about feet somepeople see feet as sexual content but no one is bitching about that

[LydiaWhyte]

Just chiming in on the content tagging - this is not a quick short term solution.

It's quite complicated feature that needs a lot of careful planning, engineering, implementation and subsequent support.

It brings more issues too - how do we ensure people tag content properly, how do we handle when they don't and so on.

It's a complex feature, so it would not be viable for a short term solution - we can't implement it that quick - at least not well.

For the purposes of this discussion, consider it as something that will come down the line.

thats is a complex issue when it comes to tagging. someone might see something as sexual when its not sexual and tag it as sexual whats sexual to one person isnt to another

[LydiaWhyte]

not my idea to make a github about it

says the auther

[navy3001]

so your saying nipples should be banned cause there seen as sexual content? what about feet somepeople see feet as sexual content but no one is bitching about that

I have never heard that ever being a thing before now, is this a new weird thing?

Also, for years, female breast have been consittered nudity, Feet never have. Example, here are afew places that do not like them https://www.mensxp.com/relationships/sex-and-intimacy/28399-15-countries-where-breasts-are-considered-offensive.html

And, for feet, I say again, I think people are trying to make feet sexual because humanity is beimng more sick, at least western constule, trying to make anything they can into a sexural Innuendo (I think thats the right word?) When it is a normal common word or food like bananna, or eggplant. Just sick people being sick.

[LydiaWhyte]

I agree completely. I don't see the point to allowing them in the first place, I think it was a bad decision. I understand that the team wanted to be more inclusive or whatever but in reality, I don't think that is the outcome. In my experience, there are literally only two times that nude breasts come into play and that is either a new player importing an avatar or people being horny in public instances. The avatar issue is not a problem, that issue gets resolved fast usually. Being lewd in public instances is unsettling for people (its often viewable in the world browser, the world that caused this GH issue being a prime example, so it's not just local to the world instance) and gives Resonite as a whole a bad name.

if people are being lewd in a public instance thats is against tos and i 100% agree with you but the issue is why are we labelling something benign as nipples as nsfw? like sharkmare states why are we objectifying women

[LydiaWhyte]

so your saying nipples should be banned cause there seen as sexual content? what about feet somepeople see feet as sexual content but no one is bitching about that

I have never heard that ever being a thing before now, is this a new weird thing?

Also, for years, female breast have been consittered nudity, Feet never have. Example, here are afew places that do not like them https://www.mensxp.com/relationships/sex-and-intimacy/28399-15-countries-where-breasts-are-considered-offensive.html

And, for feet, I say again, I think people are trying to make feet sexual because humanity is beimng more sick, at least western constule, trying to make anything they can into a sexural indando (I think thats the right word?) When it is a normal common word or food like bananna, or eggplant. Just sick people being sick.

yes people are sick. but also people are becoming soft world is i remember someone saying the titanic had nipples in that and thats rate 13 back in the day and now its 18?

[navy3001]

I agree completely. I don't see the point to allowing them in the first place, I think it was a bad decision. I understand that the team wanted to be more inclusive or whatever but in reality, I don't think that is the outcome. In my experience, there are literally only two times that nude breasts come into play and that is either a new player importing an avatar or people being horny in public instances. The avatar issue is not a problem, that issue gets resolved fast usually. Being lewd in public instances is unsettling for people (its often viewable in the world browser, the world that caused this GH issue being a prime example, so it's not just local to the world instance) and gives Resonite as a whole a bad name.

if people are being lewd in a public instance thats is against tos and i 100% agree with you but the issue is why are we labelling something benign as nipples as nsfw? like sharkmare states why are we objectifying women

I will tell this to you as well, there are sevral contreys out there that has laws stating female breast are illegal to be seen publicly. USA has laws, Canada has laws, the places here has laws https://www.mensxp.com/relationships/sex-and-intimacy/28399-15-countries-where-breasts-are-considered-offensive.html even France has laws. Yes, Resonite is in the EU, but they still have to obay laws from other contries if they wish the game to not be banned there. They are not ,because they are not VRC big yet. If they get that big and do not fix the issue, contery ban ave will hit.

"yes people are sick. but also people are becoming soft world is i remember someone saying the titanic had nipples in that and thats rate 13 back in the day and now its 18?"

Irrelvent, we are talking about current day, and not 1997. Laws of today are not the same as 1997.

EDIT: The movie also was not publicly show, but you needed to buy a ticked to see it privetly in a building.

[LydiaWhyte]

I agree completely. I don't see the point to allowing them in the first place, I think it was a bad decision. I understand that the team wanted to be more inclusive or whatever but in reality, I don't think that is the outcome. In my experience, there are literally only two times that nude breasts come into play and that is either a new player importing an avatar or people being horny in public instances. The avatar issue is not a problem, that issue gets resolved fast usually. Being lewd in public instances is unsettling for people (its often viewable in the world browser, the world that caused this GH issue being a prime example, so it's not just local to the world instance) and gives Resonite as a whole a bad name.

if people are being lewd in a public instance thats is against tos and i 100% agree with you but the issue is why are we labelling something benign as nipples as nsfw? like sharkmare states why are we objectifying women

I will tell this to you as well, there are sevral contreys out there that has laws stating female breast are illegal to be seen publicly. USA has laws, Canada has laws, the places here has laws https://www.mensxp.com/relationships/sex-and-intimacy/28399-15-countries-where-breasts-are-considered-offensive.html even France has laws. Yes, Resonite is in the EU, but they still have to obay laws from other contries if they wish the game to not be banned there. They are not ,because they are not VRC big yet. If they get that big and do not fix the issue, contery ban ave will hit.

"yes people are sick. but also people are becoming soft world is i remember someone saying the titanic had nipples in that and thats rate 13 back in the day and now its 18?"

Irrelvent, we are talking about current day, and not 1997. Laws of today are not the same as 1997.

EDIT: The movie also was not publicly show, but you needed to buy a ticked to see it privetly in a building.

Private? it was rated 13? there parents could buy them tickets and they could go

[navy3001]

I agree completely. I don't see the point to allowing them in the first place, I think it was a bad decision. I understand that the team wanted to be more inclusive or whatever but in reality, I don't think that is the outcome. In my experience, there are literally only two times that nude breasts come into play and that is either a new player importing an avatar or people being horny in public instances. The avatar issue is not a problem, that issue gets resolved fast usually. Being lewd in public instances is unsettling for people (its often viewable in the world browser, the world that caused this GH issue being a prime example, so it's not just local to the world instance) and gives Resonite as a whole a bad name.

if people are being lewd in a public instance thats is against tos and i 100% agree with you but the issue is why are we labelling something benign as nipples as nsfw? like sharkmare states why are we objectifying women

I will tell this to you as well, there are sevral contreys out there that has laws stating female breast are illegal to be seen publicly. USA has laws, Canada has laws, the places here has laws https://www.mensxp.com/relationships/sex-and-intimacy/28399-15-countries-where-breasts-are-considered-offensive.html even France has laws. Yes, Resonite is in the EU, but they still have to obay laws from other contries if they wish the game to not be banned there. They are not ,because they are not VRC big yet. If they get that big and do not fix the issue, contery ban ave will hit. "yes people are sick. but also people are becoming soft world is i remember someone saying the titanic had nipples in that and thats rate 13 back in the day and now its 18?" Irrelvent, we are talking about current day, and not 1997. Laws of today are not the same as 1997. EDIT: The movie also was not publicly show, but you needed to buy a ticked to see it privetly in a building.

Private? it was rated 13? there parents could buy them tickets and they could go

Yes, privet. You had to pay to get into the building, to see the film. It was not just shown on some random wall for anyone to see as they walk by.

Edit: Also interesting how that is the only part of my argument you decided to reply to lol.

[Geenz]

Please remain civil and objective in the discussion of this topic. It's a complicated one, and there's multiple inputs on this one in particular that makes this especially complex.

We are presently evaluating this on all fronts - both the feedback in this issue, from a moderation standpoint, and a legal standpoint.

Keep the feedback coming while we evaluate.

[Sharkmare]

One thing i dont understand is why people are conflating a countries laws on how you are allowed to be in public with laws regarding media. Those laws specifically only apply within that country because you physically would have to be in public outside in that country.

It really doesnot apply to video games and other software.

[navy3001]

One thing i dont understand is why people are conflating a countries laws on how you are allowed to be in public with laws regarding media. Those laws specifically only apply within that country because you physically would have to be in public outside in that country.

It really doesnot apply to video games and other software.

Incorrect, War Thunder is based in Russia, however, they do not use the nazi flag because peopel that play it are in sevral contries that have the flag banned. If War Thunder wants to use the correct german flag in WW2, the game would be banned in those places. So while you are correct, they do not HAVE to follow those laws, they WILL lose the players that live in thoses areas, due to being banned.

[Sharkmare]

One thing i dont understand is why people are conflating a countries laws on how you are allowed to be in public with laws regarding media. Those laws specifically only apply within that country because you physically would have to be in public outside in that country. It really doesnot apply to video games and other software.

Incorrect, War Thunder is based in Russia, however, they do not use the nazi flag because peopel that play it are in sevral contries that have the flag banned. If War Thunder wants to use the correct german flag in WW2, the game would be banned in those places. So while you are correct, they do not HAVE to follow those laws, they WILL lose the players that live in thoses areas, due to being banned.

Because the ban for the flags apply to games in those countires, again, public indecency laws do not apply to video games, theres seperate laws based on where you are that dictate what is and is not allowed for such media. One small example is that in germany walking around in public with such a flag would be most likely viewed as "Wiederbetätigung" however when it comes to games and other Art medium using the flag for historical accuracy is allowed.

It's important to look at the context of the law and see how and where it applies.

Otherwise you could make even silly arguments like shooting someone with a gun in Call of duty is illegal.

[navy3001]

One thing i dont understand is why people are conflating a countries laws on how you are allowed to be in public with laws regarding media. Those laws specifically only apply within that country because you physically would have to be in public outside in that country. It really doesnot apply to video games and other software.

Incorrect, War Thunder is based in Russia, however, they do not use the nazi flag because peopel that play it are in sevral contries that have the flag banned. If War Thunder wants to use the correct german flag in WW2, the game would be banned in those places. So while you are correct, they do not HAVE to follow those laws, they WILL lose the players that live in thoses areas, due to being banned.

Because the ban for the flags apply to games in those countires, again, public indecency laws do not apply to video games, theres seperate laws based on where you are that dictate what is and is not allowed for such media. One small example is that in germany walking around in public with such a flag would be most likely viewed as "Wiederbetätigung" however when it comes to games and other Art medium using the flag for historical accuracy is allowed.

It's important to look at the context of the law and see how and where it applies.

Otherwise you could make even silly arguments like shooting someone with a gun in Call of duty is illegal.

With germany, it stats " Legal consequences can be a fine or a prison term of up to fifteen years " for using a nazi flag. As you say, its important to look at the contect of the law. As for the indecency laws, there were a few games banned by the USA, due to other resons https://gypsynester.com/7-video-games-that-were-banned-in-the-usa/ Also, you are correct, in my reserch, the indency laws do not apply to gaming. Howver, ESBR system, sees female breast as M+ worthly as seen here https://www.escapistmagazine.com/boobies-did-not-break-the-game-the-esrb-clears-the-air-on-oblivion/

[LydiaWhyte]

One thing i dont understand is why people are conflating a countries laws on how you are allowed to be in public with laws regarding media. Those laws specifically only apply within that country because you physically would have to be in public outside in that country. It really doesnot apply to video games and other software.

Incorrect, War Thunder is based in Russia, however, they do not use the nazi flag because peopel that play it are in sevral contries that have the flag banned. If War Thunder wants to use the correct german flag in WW2, the game would be banned in those places. So while you are correct, they do not HAVE to follow those laws, they WILL lose the players that live in thoses areas, due to being banned.

Because the ban for the flags apply to games in those countires, again, public indecency laws do not apply to video games, theres seperate laws based on where you are that dictate what is and is not allowed for such media. One small example is that in germany walking around in public with such a flag would be most likely viewed as "Wiederbetätigung" however when it comes to games and other Art medium using the flag for historical accuracy is allowed. It's important to look at the context of the law and see how and where it applies. Otherwise you could make even silly arguments like shooting someone with a gun in Call of duty is illegal.

With germany, it stats " Legal consequences can be a fine or a prison term of up to fifteen years " for using a nazi flag. As you say, its important to look at the contect of the law. As for the indecency laws, there were a few games banned by the USA, due to other resons https://gypsynester.com/7-video-games-that-were-banned-in-the-usa/ Also, you are correct, in my reserch, the indency laws do not apply to gaming. Howver, ESBR system, sees female breast as M+ worthly as seen here https://www.escapistmagazine.com/boobies-did-not-break-the-game-the-esrb-clears-the-air-on-oblivion/

as you said before irrelevant. how is this relevant to tits in a virtual game?

[navy3001]

One thing i dont understand is why people are conflating a countries laws on how you are allowed to be in public with laws regarding media. Those laws specifically only apply within that country because you physically would have to be in public outside in that country. It really doesnot apply to video games and other software.

Incorrect, War Thunder is based in Russia, however, they do not use the nazi flag because peopel that play it are in sevral contries that have the flag banned. If War Thunder wants to use the correct german flag in WW2, the game would be banned in those places. So while you are correct, they do not HAVE to follow those laws, they WILL lose the players that live in thoses areas, due to being banned.

Because the ban for the flags apply to games in those countires, again, public indecency laws do not apply to video games, theres seperate laws based on where you are that dictate what is and is not allowed for such media. One small example is that in germany walking around in public with such a flag would be most likely viewed as "Wiederbetätigung" however when it comes to games and other Art medium using the flag for historical accuracy is allowed. It's important to look at the context of the law and see how and where it applies. Otherwise you could make even silly arguments like shooting someone with a gun in Call of duty is illegal.

With germany, it stats " Legal consequences can be a fine or a prison term of up to fifteen years " for using a nazi flag. As you say, its important to look at the contect of the law. As for the indecency laws, there were a few games banned by the USA, due to other resons https://gypsynester.com/7-video-games-that-were-banned-in-the-usa/ Also, you are correct, in my reserch, the indency laws do not apply to gaming. Howver, ESBR system, sees female breast as M+ worthly as seen here https://www.escapistmagazine.com/boobies-did-not-break-the-game-the-esrb-clears-the-air-on-oblivion/

as you said before irrelevant. how is this relevant to tits in a virtual game?

It is releveant to the ESRB system.

[shininghero]

It is releveant to the ESRB system.

It becomes a lot less cut and dry when it comes to user generated content.

Starbound for example is rated E10. However, there is a mod site called Lover's Lab that adds some very much adult content.

Does Starbound now need to raise their esrb rating over content they didn't make or include in the base game? Or is the responsibility on Lover's Labs end to ensure the acquisition of their mods is properly gated?

[PointerOffset]

Session thumbnails might create some complications. Legally speaking, there might be problems with Resonite delivering a session thumbnail to a user with exposed nipples depending on where that content is coming from and who it's going to. That, however, sounds like a lawyer question.

If the guidelines allow nipples in public sessions the policy is just saying "They are allowed by default. Session hosts can set their own session rules for this." So this doesn't mean anyone can just walk into your session exposed if you don't want them to. You can ask them to change for your "dress code" or ask them to leave. If the host has specific reasons for disallowing that exposure, they can set and post those rules at their session spawn. All the guidelines do is allow users more flexibility in what they are okay with, leaning on the side of a more inclusive policy. Your session is still yours.

As far as my personal opinion as a user: I understand the controversy and maybe there's some legal questions here, but I do think it's a bad policy view nipples as different between genders. Especially if we consider gender fluidity and non-binary genders. Disallowing them is a policy that's specifically targeting females in a way that's easily argued as unfair and has the potential to make life harder for those that don't fall under a gender binary too. Not to mention the stress and complexity for a moderator being asked to enforce a no-nipple policy in relation to a user that is gender fluid or otherwise non-binary.

Generally I think it's fine that nipples are allowed. If they aren't then the policy should remain consistent across the gender spectrum: Everyone gets nipples in public or nobody does.

[Readun]

Its probably better to look at the Laws than googling and stating random Websites. Im just confused why this is exploding again, we already had a big discussion about this in the past.

[gameboycjp]

Does Starbound now need to raise their esrb rating over content they didn't make or include in the base game? Or is the responsibility on Lover's Labs end to ensure the acquisition of their mods is properly gated?

It's different when the game primarily features UGC. Unofficial mods are not distributed, maintained, or represented by the original game.

[Kandermann]

Nipples are not inherently sexual. Neither female nor male nipples. The only reason some regressive areas view the female nipple as more sexual is because women themselves in those areas are viewed as a sexual things. It is directly based in objectification of the female form, I see no reason why anyone should be pandering to this. If you personally do not like something people are doing, just dont engage with it, exactly like ANY other thing that is allowed that you may not like.

As for the issue of "16+" Rating..... yeah no nudity is literally allowed under that label the Guidelines of Resonite are actually more restrictive than the age rating.

In essence, either All nipples are bad or no nipples are bad.

That is your personal opinion on the matter. However what do you think parents would say if they saw their 16yo child playing a game with what could be considered "suggestive content". Not to even mention the laws against this. Also it could be considered pedophilia when an adult is showing this content to a minor. I get the equality and all, however I do not think this should be put under that umbrella. Nipples on a woman's body are sexualised not just by men, most of the time the person that has them sexualises them just as much. and when there is minors involved there should not be a question here. It's not okay, that's it.

[navy3001]

It is releveant to the ESRB system.

It becomes a lot less cut and dry when it comes to user generated content.

Starbound for example is rated E10. However, there is a mod site called Lover's Lab that adds some very much adult content.

Does Starbound now need to raise their esrb rating over content they didn't make or include in the base game? Or is the responsibility on Lover's Labs end to ensure the acquisition of their mods is properly gated?

Difference is, you have to look for that mod site to find it. The game does not say "Here it is!" Resonite is built where if sessions are active, it shows them. So, you go to world page, active worlds, and it says "Here it is! M+ content on page 1"

[Mentalish1]

Nipples are not inherently sexual. Neither female nor male nipples. The only reason some regressive areas view the female nipple as more sexual is because women themselves in those areas are viewed as a sexual things. It is directly based in objectification of the female form, I see no reason why anyone should be pandering to this. If you personally do not like something people are doing, just dont engage with it, exactly like ANY other thing that is allowed that you may not like. As for the issue of "16+" Rating..... yeah no nudity is literally allowed under that label the Guidelines of Resonite are actually more restrictive than the age rating. In essence, either All nipples are bad or no nipples are bad.

That is your personal opinion on the matter. However what do you think parents would say if they saw their 16yo child playing a game with what could be considered "suggestive content". Not to even mention the laws against this. Also it could be considered pedophilia when an adult is showing this content to a minor. I get the equality and all, however I do not think this should be put under that umbrella. Nipples on a woman's body are sexualised not just by men, most of the time the person that has them sexualises them just as much. and when there is minors involved there should not be a question here. It's not okay, that's it.

We already have Minors( 16 to 18 y/o) who already find said content uncomfortable to see and be around, granted that expands beyond the whole Nipple conversation. I hope the Moderation team comes to a conclusion and updates the guidelines after the dusts settles on this conversation.

[Sharkmare]

Nipples are not inherently sexual. Neither female nor male nipples. The only reason some regressive areas view the female nipple as more sexual is because women themselves in those areas are viewed as a sexual things. It is directly based in objectification of the female form, I see no reason why anyone should be pandering to this. If you personally do not like something people are doing, just dont engage with it, exactly like ANY other thing that is allowed that you may not like. As for the issue of "16+" Rating..... yeah no nudity is literally allowed under that label the Guidelines of Resonite are actually more restrictive than the age rating. In essence, either All nipples are bad or no nipples are bad.

That is your personal opinion on the matter. However what do you think parents would say if they saw their 16yo child playing a game with what could be considered "suggestive content". Not to even mention the laws against this. Also it could be considered pedophilia when an adult is showing this content to a minor. I get the equality and all, however I do not think this should be put under that umbrella. Nipples on a woman's body are sexualised not just by men, most of the time the person that has them sexualises them just as much. and when there is minors involved there should not be a question here. It's not okay, that's it.

See you can make the argument for banning nipples without going "we dont need to be equal" Like i understand if people think nipples shouldnt be allowed, thats fine, I disagree and i disagree that they are inherently sexual. But even if you thinkt hey should be banned, why discriminate? just ban both.

[JackTheFoxOtter]

See you can make the argument for banning nipples without going "we dont need to be equal" Like i understand if people think nipples shouldnt be allowed, thats fine, I disagree and i disagree that they are inherently sexual. But even if you thinkt hey should be banned, why discriminate? just ban both.

Agreed. The original reasoning IIRC was that going the route of not banning them allowed users more freedom, and if some users weren't comfortable with it, they could just add additional rules in their sessions. I understand that this might make people uncomfortable, and that's why they are always free to add their own rules on top of the platform guidelines. I'm fine with banning all nipples if that's what is necessary, I just don't want to see any inequality in regulations or enforcement. Although my personal opinion is that we are a pretty mature community and I really don't think this is as much of an issue as some people make it out to be.

That said, I think this conversation has MASSIVELY derailed. Comparing shirtless avatars in a VR game to illegal right-wing extremist symbology is super inappropriate, as are discussions about War Thunder, as that has nothing to do with anything here.

This won't stop you seeing them in world previews, which in turn could result in knock-on effects (e.g. get you kicked off Twitch).

To respond to the point of session thumbnails, the streaming camera by default doesn't render your userspace. So while I understand that this might be a bit uncomfortable for some people (again, we aren't talking about sexual content here, we're discussion wether shirtless avatars are allowed to have visible nipples), I think the argument that browsing the session browser could get streamers banned from Twitch is a bit far fetched. Also IIRC Twitch themselves actually recently pushed out a rule change that allows non-sexual depiction of breasts now, so like, from my perspective reversing the decision to allow nipples in this community would socially feel like a step back.

A generalized content tagging solution to be able to tell which content is considered non-sexual nudity or explicit adult material would be a good option, however, I don't see this as any short-term solution, that would require significant development work, and also leave a lot of legacy content untagged.

[Enverex]

Also IIRC Twitch themselves actually recently pushed out a rule change that allows non-sexual depiction of breasts now, so like, from my perspective reversing the decision to allow nipples in this community would socially feel like a step back.

They immediately reversed this because it resulted in Twitch becoming a soft-core porn site and legal nightmare overnight.