False Plugin Conflict Info in Development Version

[ghost]

I just noticed this in the newly uploaded development version of the plugin.

Please remove this from the wordpress-seo/trunk/admin/class-plugin-conflict.php:

'cloaking' => array(
    'rs-head-cleaner/rs-head-cleaner.php',
    // RS Head Cleaner Plus https://wordpress.org/plugins/rs-head-cleaner/.
    'rs-head-cleaner-lite/rs-head-cleaner-lite.php',
    // RS Head Cleaner Lite https://wordpress.org/plugins/rs-head-cleaner-lite/.
),

That is patently false information, as these plugins do not use cloaking. No one from your team has contacted us to try to actually understand the functionality. If you believe it is cloaking, then you do not understand cloaking. We would have been happy to discuss this with your team.

I previously responded to these false claims by Yoast previously, and now this is an attempt to bully.

This is definitely retaliatory, and the carrying out of a threat from Yoast where he said he would do something like this, in response to a recent situation where we called Yoast out for attacking other plugin developers.

This is really not cool guys. That's unprofessional, and a very, very corrupt practice in our opinion.

[jdevalk]

Hi @redsandsd,

Did you change the workings of your plugin? Or do you still have code that looks for googlebot's user agent?

If you still have that code, we still consider that cloaking, and we will keep throwing this notice. If you've removed it, please reopen this thread, point us to the new version so we can verify, and we'll remove our notice. It's that simple.

You can see this as retaliation, and I understand why you're not happy with this, but it's not. We hold no grudges, simply fixing this on your end would make us happy.

[ghost]

@jdevalk,

No, and we do not need to change the functionality of our plugin. You don't dictate how we code our plugins.

It caches the minified CSS and JS files. Plugins with caching functionality often have to make some differentiation between search engines and humans. This is not cloaking, because no substantially different content is served.

The functionality has do do with caching, and works similarly to how other minification and caching plugins work with search engines.

WP Super Cache (by Automattic) for example uses similar functionality (as do other caching plugins), yet you do not label it as cloaking, nor do you have a compatibility notice.

In the settings for WP Super Cache look at the "Rejected User Agents" section. Search engine spiders are included by default.

Strings in the HTTP ’User Agent’ header that prevent WP-Cache from caching bot, spiders, and crawlers’ requests.

Calling this functionality "cloaking" is sheer ignorance, if not malice.

If you're going to take this idiotic stance, then you would have to mark all cache and minification plugins as "cloaking plugins". Ridiculous.

Now, please say with a straight face that this is not retaliatory? I don't think so. Stop these shenanigans.

If you continue to do this, we will make sure that people become keenly aware of your tactics of attacking other developers. Not a smart move for you. I suggest you rethink your strategy.

[jdevalk]

WP super cache doesn't send different content, it sends uncached content. You change the output, that's what differs. If you didn't do that, we wouldn't throw this warning.

You can disagree all you want, and threaten with all sorts of things, it only reflects poorly on you, sorry.

[ghost]

@jdevalk

WP super cache doesn't send different content, it sends uncached content. You change the output, that's what differs. If you didn't do that, we wouldn't throw this warning.

You don't know what you're talking about. That is patently false.

You can disagree all you want, and threaten with all sorts of things, it only reflects poorly on you, sorry.

Nope. Wrong again. Not making threats. Just letting you know that you don't get to try to bully other developers without people being made aware of your corrupt tactics.

[jdevalk]

I'm being fair. I don't trust your plugin the way it handles bots right now, that's why I've decided we should throw this error. That's not bullying, that's a decision I honestly think is better for our users.

[ghost]

I'm being fair. I don't trust your plugin the way it handles bots right now, that's why I've decided we should throw this error.

FALSE. If that were actually true, that would demonstrate incredible ignorance on your part regarding SEO & cloaking. However, based on our previous interactions, there is no way that it is mere ignorance.

That's not bullying, that's a decision I honestly think is better for our users.

FALSE. Say what you like, but your history of attacking other plugin developers show this to be an unadulterated lie. Your previous interactions toward us show this to be an unadulterated lie. You can't get away from the facts. These things are documented.

If you really were trying to do what is better for your users, you would be addressing issues that are brought up in your plugin's support threads, and not blatantly ignoring them. You wouldn't be spamming the crap out of your users. You wouldn't be attacking other plugin developers. These types of behavior are not consistent with "fair", but they are consistent with "bullying".

Don't worry though. We'll make sure that people understand exactly what's going on.

[jdevalk]

I'm not attacking you, you're attacking me. The people you've seen on Wordpress.org that I've had issues with are people that are removing our ads or in other ways break our business model. I have no such beef with you, I'll be very happy to remove the warning as soon as I'm certain that what you're doing is not risky. Your code looked risky to me, if you can fix that, we're done.

[ghost]

@jdevalk

I'm not attacking you, you're attacking me.

Seriously? You have to stop lying. You posted three negative reviews in a row about plugins that removed some spammy element added by your plugin. We were minding our own business when you came to us.

The people you've seen on Wordpress.org that I've had issues with are people that are removing our ads or in other ways break our business model.

It's open source...they are free to do that. Your users have been complaining about the spammy-ness of your ads, so other developers created a way to remove them. Nothing wrong with that. Other plugins (including ours) clean up the HTML by removing HTML comments during the minification process.

None of these broke your business model. Not at all. And you didn't make any effort to contact these developers to discuss, or submit support requests...In each case you went right to 1-star reviews, and straight up attacked each one.

I have no such beef with you..

Your previous actions, interactions, threats, etc toward us would contradict that notion. Sorry, the facts don't support that.

I'll be very happy to remove the warning as soon as I'm certain that what you're doing is not risky. Your code looked risky to me.

If that were true, you should have made the effort to educate yourself. Your lack of knowledge is not my problem. It is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. But, you better be real careful before you make unfounded claims, or it will end up making you look like an idiot, when all is said and done.

You could have contacted me, and I would have been happy to have a conversation with you. I'm not going to give away my expertise in these public forums, but I would have been happy to share info privately with you as a professional courtesy. There are areas of SEO that you clearly are ignorant about, and this is one of them.

When it comes to bot detection, in both SEO and security areas, this is one of my areas of expertise that few can match. Search engine bots, and how they work, including cloaking and all sub-areas of cloaking, are in my wheelhouse. We fight black-hat SEO, and have for 20 years.

Your code looked risky to me, if you can fix that, we're done.

Like I said, it's not my responsibility to prove anything to you. If you want to act in ignorance go right ahead.

So, you say I'm attacking you? Nope.

Keep lying to yourself. That's fine.

[jdevalk]

I don't care what you think your expertise is, and I don't care what you think we know. I honestly don't have much of an opinion about you or your plugin, as it's fairly small and we don't use it. I see that you're doing something different for Googlebot than for normal users and I'm simply not OK with that.

For the record, this is the code that worries me, taken from line 842-844 of rs-head-cleaner.php:

if( ( FALSE !== strpos( $ua, 'googlebot' ) || FALSE !== strpos( $ua, 'bingbot' ) || FALSE !== strpos( $ua, 'yahoo! slurp' ) ) && FALSE === strpos( $_SERVER['REQUEST_URI'], $theme_css_url && preg_match( "~/css/rsm\-(min|raw)\-css\-[a-z0-9]{32,}\.css$~i", $_SERVER['REQUEST_URI'] ) ) ) {
    header( 'Location: '.$theme_css_url, TRUE, 301 ); exit();
}

In this code, you're redirecting these specific bots to the theme's CSS file. I honestly think you could remove this code entirely and your plugin would work just as fine for everyone. Google can read minified CSS just fine. The problem right now is that you're showing googlebot something else than say google adsbot or google's Adsense mediapartners bot. That last bot, for instance, uses the user agent Mediapartners-Google and thus wouldn't be caught by your code. If a site is running Adsense and your plugin, that bot would also come by and crawl and there'd be a difference in the crawl result from Googlebot and the Mediapartners-Google bot.

Ever since Google started using a crawl caching proxy back in '06, this sort of difference is problematic and can lead to nasty issues as well as it can cause a site to be flagged for cloaking. I'm not saying you have malicious intent, I don't think you do. I'm saying you could cause people to be flagged falsely.

Now my opinion is my opinion and doesn't have to bother you. We will tell our users of our opinion, and you're welcome to disagree.

People apparently value my opinion, because we have built a plugin that's used on 6.5 million websites for their SEO. That's the reason you're so upset about all this, because you know people will trust us. I get that. And yes this is, in a way, a power play, but not because I want to fight you: I truly don't. But I want my users to get the best possible optimization, and I don't think your plugin in its current form helps them in that regard.

That's it, end of story.

[ghost]

@jdevalk

Thank you. You're proving my point nicely. :)

Sure, if you take code out of context, you can say anything you like about. That's exactly what proves you don't know what you're talking about, and it shows your ignorance.

I guess you just really must enjoy being proven wrong and public embarrassment. Not a problem.

I'm sure that number of users will be coming down quite a bit this year after people find out about your corrupt practices, your attacks on other developers, and that your SEO knowledge has some serious holes.

No, this is definitely not the end of the story. Not even close. :)

[Ipstenu]

Okay I'm ONLY stepping in as a forum mod/plugin review rep because both of you have acted like children.

1. Both your reviews have been pulled.
2. You can keep talking here, but if you bring it into the forums again, I will set your accounts to mod-watch so everything has to be approved. Yes, even Joost's account.
3. This is within Yoast SEO's right to say "This plugin causes problems with ours."

I understand why this is upsetting, and perhaps flagging it as 'cloaking' is being read harshly, but the facts are pretty clear here that you two disagree on the best practices.

It's not my job to mediate those disputes, and I'm not even going to try. If RedSand wants to throw a warning not to use YoastSEO because they don't understand cloaking, they're welcome to, however I strongly discourage you from doing that since if you end up with legit one star reviews about dragging users into a grudge match, the support forums team will not remove them.

Don't drag the .org forums into your fight, folks. It's unbecoming of either of your businesses.

[ghost]

Hi @Ipstenu,

I appreciate your response. However, if someone is making blatantly false statements, and harassing us, I have a right to defend myself, my company and my work. That is not being childish, and I don't appreciate being referred to that way. I've done nothing out of line, and have merely pointed out boundaries that have been crossed. I've given Yoast multiple opportunities to contact us, and rectify his ignorance. All of this started as an attack from Yoast...we were minding our own business. In my posts simply pointed out after that that Yoast has established a pattern of attacking other developers, which is a documented fact. I've never done this, nor has anyone from my team. All of my posts were factual and can be verified. If speaking the truth is considered "childish" within the WordPress.org community, then there is a serious problem. This isn't elementary school - this is adult life, and sometimes people do start shit with others for no reason, or because of their dislikes.

The truth is, the forums need to do a better job of providing a way to fight harassment, and prevent toxic behavior. If people can't defend themselves in the forums, and point out when others are making bogus attacks, then the forums, and WordPress in general, have a serious problem.

I appreciate your work in the forums very much, but please consider that. Thank you.

[jdevalk]

@RedSandSD I've asked Mika for feedback on how to better handle this situation, because I feel we're not really getting anywhere. I don't want you to feel harassed, and I certainly do feel (and don't like feeling) harassed and even threatened by you.

I've started this myself, by posting a review when I shouldn't have, for which I've already apologised. How can we get to a stage where we can at least get to a more... gentleman like conversation?

[macmanx2]

@RedSandSD Hi there, I'm also stepping in here only as a forum moderator.

The point is that your disagreement should never have come to the WordPress.org forums by way of hostile reviews. Please solve your disagreement together and don't drag others into it (at least not on the WordPress.org forums).

[ghost]

@jdevalk

I've started this myself, by posting a review when I shouldn't have, for which I've already apologised.

Yes, you "apologized", then immediately changed the review to another negative review, and proceeded to make threats, and troll our support forums on multiple plugins, and add deceptive notices to your plugin and slander us. So, forgive me if I don't buy that.

I've already let you know how you can start to resolve things. As I've already said multiple times:

I’m not going to argue with you further here.

If you really want to be the magnanimous person you claim to be, then make things right by the other developers you have attacked. Then, move forward, and stop this tactic of attacking other plugin developers.

Being a team player means being a team player in the larger sense of the global WordPress community.

If you want to discuss like gentlemen, contact me offline, and we’ll bury the hatchet.

I said that to you 4 weeks ago.

[ghost]

@macmanx2 Yes, I agree with you.

Please check your facts though. We did not start this whole situation, and we were not the ones attacking other WordPress developers. I discovered that pattern with Yoast's negative review of our plugin being the third in line. I pointed it out on the forums, but everything I said was factual and can be verified. It needed to be said, because Yoast needs to stop attacking other developers and trying to intimidate them.

Sometimes ugly truths need to be pointed out. It's a conversation that needed to happen. Since people were being harassed on the forums, the conversation had to happen there. The real issue, is that you as moderators are letting toxic behavior happen too often.

[jdevalk]

As I've said before, you're seeing a pattern that simply does not exist. I've left negative reviews for two other plugins, one of which has been deleted since as well. Those other plugins were attacking our business model and directly removing stuff from our plugin, breaking it in the process.

That's not the case with your plugin. With your plugin we have what we call a plugin conflict, which I have told you how you can resolve. If you choose not to do that that's fine and your choice.

[macmanx2]

@RedSandSD I have no opinion or ruling on whose plugin is doing what, that's not my role at WordPress.org. My role at WordPress.org is to keep the forums clean and safe, to help other users, to assist the Support Team in coordinating with other teams, and to assist my fellow moderators as necessary.

Just because someone else does something that you don't like does not mean you get license to violate the forum guidelines. That goes for everyone. This disagreement is a discussion that should happen, but it needs to happen between the two of you. It does not need to be hashed out on the WordPress.org forums, especially by way of hostile reviews, and that is the only fact that matters to me in this case. Please do not bring it to the forums again.

[ghost]

@jdevalk

As I've said before, you're seeing a pattern that simply does not exist.

You've got to stop lying. 3 negative reviews in a row without submitting support requests, equals a pattern.

1. You attacked the "Remove Branding for Yoast SEO" plugin. The plugin did not attack your business model...it simply removed the excessive spam your plugin places in the admin. Link to your 1 star review: Instead of helping to improve Yoast SEO, this author breaks it. There was nothing wrong with this plugin. This is open source...People are free to remove your spam.
2. You attacked the "Remove Yoast SEO comments" plugin by posting a 1-star review without submitting a support request first. The plugin did not attack your business model...it simply removed your spammy HTML comments you add which bloat the code, and advertise for you. You posted a 1-star review that has now been deleted. There was nothing wrong with this plugin. This is open source...People are free to remove your spam.
3. You attacked the "RS Head Cleaner Plus" plugin (ours) by posting a 1-star review without submitting a support request first. None of your complaints mentioned the real issue...the fact that it does the same thing "Remove Yoast SEO comments" does...remove your spammy HTML comments you add which bloat the code, and advertise for you. You posted a 1-star review that has now also been deleted. There was nothing wrong with this plugin. This is open source...People are free to remove your spam. Your initial complaints with the plugin were clearly a smokescreen, because when the initial complaint was fixed, you just changed your review to another 1-star review with this BS claim of cloaking now.

So yes, that is a pattern. Ask the other plugin developers...you attacked them. You attacked us. Again, that's a pattern.

With your plugin we have what we call a plugin conflict, which I have told you how you can resolve. If you choose not to do that that's fine and your choice.

No, you're blatantly lying to your users, and claiming that we are using cloaking and that it will hurt a user's SEO. That is slander. Also, as stated above, we do not need to change the functionality of our plugin. You don't dictate how we code our plugins.

[ghost]

@macmanx2

The reason I said to check the facts, is that you're not aware of the whole backstory, and the level of harassment we've dealt with from Yoast. All of the moderators need to realize that you are moderators, not God, and that you don't know the whole story.

If people are allowed to be attacked on the forums, without being allowed to defend themselves and clarify the truth, then that is the bigger issue. That's essentially what you're telling me.

Just because someone else does something that you don't like does not mean you get license to violate the forum guidelines.

That's where you need to check your facts. As far as I'm tracking I did not violate any rules.

It does not need to be hashed out on the WordPress.org forums, especially by way of hostile reviews, and that is the only fact that matters to me in this case.

Again, you're lacking on the facts. If someone slanders me or my company, or my work in the forums, then you are incorrect, I have the right to defend and clarify.

Please do not bring it to the forums again.

If someone harasses myself, my company, or other developers on the forums, then yes, it should be brought up in the forums. If you don't see that, then the forums have a serious problem with allowing toxic behavior. As moderators, if you don't deal with the real issue, then that's a cop out.

If you have an issue with any of my behavior, then email me privately and we'll discuss. (As a moderator, you can get my email from wordpress.org.)

[macmanx2]

@RedSandSD I do understand the whole story, I've been following it closely and involved in various ways throughout.

You brought a disagreement between two developers into the public WordPress.org forums by way of a hostile review. You were asked to not do that.

Do not read further into that, there is nothing further to be read into. A guideline was violated, it has been addressed. We expect all participants on the WordPress.org forums to follow the posted guidelines: https://make.wordpress.org/support/handbook/forum-welcome/

You do not need to defend yourself against harassment on the WordPress.org forums by repeating harassment on the WordPress.org forums. If you find harassment on the WordPress.org forums, you contact the moderators, and you let us deal with it: https://make.wordpress.org/support/handbook/forum-welcome/#forum-chat

I won't be emailing you to discuss this further, and I won't be leaving further comments here, as I see absolutely no value in the time spent repeating myself.

Do not bring this hostility back into the WordPress.org forums, or further action will be taken against your accounts.

[ghost]

@macmanx2

I hear you, James. I appreciate your point of view, and that all of you moderators do work hard to keep civility in the forums. I don't necessarily agree with all of your points, but I get what you're saying in general.

If you find harassment on the WordPress.org forums, you contact the moderators, and you let us deal with it

In the future, will do. Just so you understand me, you should know that I'm a blunt person and I speak my mind...I grew up in NYC and am a combat veteran from the Army. I don't mince words...I'm used to calling a spade a spade. Just because I say something blunt, doesn't make it hostile. If I see bad behavior, I call the person out publicly, especially if the person was trying to bully or harass others publicly. I'm not into "reporting" people in secret, but if that's what you prefer, I can abide.

I do understand the whole story, I've been following it closely and involved in various ways throughout.

I can appreciate that you may feel that. But you should realize that you still don't know the whole story...that's simply not possible unless you're in my/our shoes. Please understand that.

You brought a disagreement between two developers into the public WordPress.org forums by way of a hostile review.

I do want to clarify that this is not accurate. This statement demonstrates that you don't in fact know the whole story. I was pointing out a pattern of Yoast's harassment of other developers. There were two before us, and we were the third. (And likely not the last.) Everything that I posted was relevant, and true. I'm not sure how posting true information can honestly considered hostile. I'm also not sure why as a moderator, you feel it's ok to ask people who are the subject of Yoast's harassment to not speak out. Perhaps it's just that you don't want it at the forums. I can partly understand that. If I run into abuse of that magnitude in the future I will choose a different set of media to call it out.

You do not need to defend yourself against harassment on the WordPress.org forums by repeating harassment on the WordPress.org forums.

This also isn't quite accurate. We did defend ourselves against harassment, but we were not "repeating harassment". I'm sorry but you don't get to say that to us, as it's not true in the least. We did not post any untrue information, we did not call anyone names, we did not bully, we did not sling mud. Everything we posted was factual, and can be verified by third parties. The same cannot be said of Yoast, who posted many falsehoods throughout the course of the interactions, and tried to intimidate/bully us, and other developers. You can't expect people on the receiving end of harassment to not be ticked off. Yet we still wrote honestly. So give us a little credit here.

Do not bring this hostility back into the WordPress.org forums, or further action will be taken against your accounts.

Again, I get it...you don't want unhappiness on the forums. I'll abide by that request.

However, do not ask people to not defend against harassment and slander. That is not your right. If that becomes the policy of WordPress.org, to not allow people to defend themselves, then it has become a dysfunctional community.

The real issue though is that Yoast's harassing behavior is even allowed in the first place. If that type of toxic behavior is allowed to continue, it's going to unravel the whole global WordPress community.

[macmanx2]

@RedSandSD "Perhaps it's just that you don't want it at the forums." That's all my request was. I had thought I had made it clear, multiple times.

You have the right to defend yourself, I'm not disputing that and Mika wasn't disputing that. You do not have the privilege of that defense being shared on the WordPress.org forums in a manner that violates the guidelines we expect everyone to follow. If you want to defend yourself in that manner, take it to your blog, social media, this issue on GitHub, honestly the moderators of the WordPress.org forums don't care as long as it's not in the WordPress.org forums.

We have to maintain a clean and safe space on the WordPress.org forums. That's why we have guidelines, and that's why we enforce those guidelines.

I know I said I'd leave no further comment here, but I wanted to make sure that was clear. You are more than welcome to defend yourself as far as the moderators of the WordPress.org forums are concerned. But, if the nature of that defense will be in violation of the guidelines we expect everyone on the WordPress.org forums to follow, we ask that you leave the WordPress.org forums out of it. It's as simple as that.

When you're in the WordPress.org forums, please respect the posted guidelines https://make.wordpress.org/support/handbook/forum-welcome/ and that goes for everyone.

[ghost]

@macmanx2

"Perhaps it's just that you don't want it at the forums." That's all my request was.

I hear you...totally understand. Will do. :)

We have to maintain a clean and safe space on the WordPress.org forums. That's why we have guidelines, and that's why we enforce those guidelines.

Totally understand. It's a thankless job, and it requires a lot of work. Even though I don't say it enough, I truly do appreciate you all. :)

You are more than welcome to defend yourself as far as the moderators of the WordPress.org forums are concerned.

Thank you for clarifying...much appreciated. That is essential for a healthy community.

But, if the nature of that defense will be in violation of the guidelines we expect everyone on the WordPress.org forums to follow, we ask that you leave the WordPress.org forums out of it. It's as simple as that.

Understandable. When I wrote those responses I did not feel that the nature of our responses violated any guidelines, but I do understand that others may feel differently. Should a similar situation come up in the future (which is not likely), we will be more sensitive to that, and make sure that all future responses fall within the acceptable lines.

Thanks for the clarification, James. :)

[jdevalk]

I've locked this discussion, as it's obviously not very beneficial to anyone involved.