100% Checklist Discussion

[Algent]

Hi, About #33 I first want to say I really like the added links in the text, it's really nicer like that. :+1:

But I feel like the other changes it introduced are going in the wrong direction: :confused:

• In my head main page is supposed to be a "checklist" / "cheat-sheet" for NPC quests and major stuff, not a detailed walkthrough of every area. For each zone there is a direct link to the one on fextralife. If you go that way this checklist is going to be unreadable.
• For Firelink it went from listing what you could do at that point to listing thing you wont be able to do until later. e.g. It's talking about the tower key while it's not relevant until Cathedral of the Deep which is were it is also mentioned right now.

[ZKjellberg]

Some other users have reported this.

I agree it can get a bit noisy, especially as later sections get REALLY busy with actions. Maybe it is best to look into trimming these sections.

@ScottishWolverine I know you've put in work into these sections and I appreciate the work, but we might try to reduce these and instead focus on improving the appearance of existing section wording and context links for issue #1

@Algent Would you be willing to tweak the list to provide an example revision for us to discuss the changes you suggested?

[ZKjellberg]

I see now that @ScottishWolverine sent me a message suggesting the alternative of a separate TAB for the 100% Item checklist. This could be a nice approach to satisfy both interests. Allowing those who want a focused walkthrough and for others who want to confirm they are not missing anything.

For myself, I often clear a zone and then use Die NooB's 100% videos to confirm I did not miss any items, but for others it might be nice to check off each as they progress. There have definitely been a handful of comments requested the more detailed walkthrough, which matches the historical walkthrough layout.

[Algent]

Putting it in another tab could be an option if you really want it. But this will not be fun to maintain and will just end up being a line per line break down of the wiki's walkthrough.

@ZKjellberg What I suggested is adding the links but keep the list as it was before these changes. With stuff in actual order and only relevant informations.

[ScottishWolverine]

@Algent If people are not wanting the cheat sheet to have an item guide alongside it then we can certainly take it out. I've not done too much so far so it's not major loss at this point. I was just trying to match the format of the two previous cheat sheets (Dark Souls 2 example http://smcnabb.github.io/dark-souls-2-cheat-sheet/). It worked really well for the first two games if you are worried about readability.

But let me know how you would like to move forward, the priority is obviously that the sheet meets the needs of the community. I'd argue that having sections for everything is nice but without the item walkthrough you'd have to constantly jump between tabs to check you had everything in each area though. The intent was just to make area "sweeps", so to speak.

[ZKjellberg]

@ScottishWolverine I do appreciate your work and definitely can relate to the reasoning by your approach as I did enjoy the former guide's approach. As others have said, the detail might be a bit extreme as there are many items which you can miss without much factor on gameplay.

I think the next issue to tackle for the list is adding items of high value and links to wikis for content mentioned. Additionally, some of the notes like the merchant's Item List can be handy and as they are sub-lists, they shouldn't be too invasive.

@ScottishWolverine If you want to continue building the item checklist, we can look into the extra TAB approach and see what reaction from others is. I do think there is worth, but as I @Algent mentioned, most of the big factors of the walk-through will be mentioned on the main guide and might make the item checklist a bit...bland.

I'm conflicted on this as it has its benefits but also adds to business of the checklist as we continue to add more content. For the starter areas, it doesn't seem so bad, but reviewing some of Die Noob's 100% checklists, he gets up to about 20 minutes of item collecting and I think that would become really troublesome to document.

[ZKjellberg]

To summarize: I think the biggest benefit would be to add items of interest to the checklist, such as the Claymore near the Dragon at the High Wall and similar gear that individuals might miss or not be aware of that could improve their enjoyment of the game, compared to items such as souls which don't have much of a factor to gameplay.

Again, I welcome a discussion.

[Algent]

@ScottishWolverine Thanks for the link, I didn't know about the one for DS2. As a completionist I think it's cool but 1K entries is a really scary number. If you just want a checklist for quests it's overwhelming. By the way about the tower key and patches, I checked the DS2 guide and it also doesn't mention stuff at majula before it's actually relevant (like the ladder guy). This should be done the same way.

---

I just saw there is a new thread about the cheat sheet on reddit. It look like some people do want a 100% guide.

@ZKjellberg After reading all of this I want to suggest two equally valid options:

• Make the main page a 100% checklist (with or without minor loots) and keep a more basic guide with just the quests in another tab.
• Keep only one page with a huge 100% checklist and.... add category filters :sunglasses: I'm pretty sure it's possible to do that. Each entry would be in a class and some button would allow us to toggle what is visible. The classes could be: quest, estus, weapon, armor, ring, ...

I'm in my lunch break right now so I don't have time to write more but I really like the 2nd option.

[ScottishWolverine]

@ZKjellberg Yeah, I think it could get tricky to document some areas to navigate but a reasonable chunk of the game is linear so I'm hopeful there could be a neat solution. If it gets too much I can do my best to condense in existing sections. I would also argue that people who love collecting 100% of items might not be concerned by the depth as they would expect this with a 100% collection guide?

This leads nicely on to @Algent 's point. If the second option is viable then that's certainly something that can be considered. Quest, estus, weapon, armor, ring, miscellaneous would certainly be a nice breakdown which has some merits. The only advantage I could see of the first method would be people wanting just the NPC paths to check off so they can see if they are "DONE" more easily. But I do like that second idea with a few toggle buttons at the top.

Hopefully we can find a solution that keeps everyone happy!

[ScottishWolverine]

https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/4gscat/shoutout_to_the_guy_who_maintains_cheat_sheet/d2ko64i Here's a small section of the latest reddit thread where I've asked for feedback too

[Algent]

After looking at the new comments on the thread it confirm some people want a 100% and some want a small list.

I'm going to try to notify someone who seem good with bootstrap since he made some cool pull requests. @CL4PTP Hi, sorry to disturb you but I need an advice on a idea: Is it possible to add button/checkbox that would allow us to filter in/out li entries by using class/id ? If it work this would allow to filter entries by type (quest, estus, weapon, armor, ring, upgrade, misc, ...).

[SpaceEraser]

@Algent that's definitely possible. It'd require a bit of Javascript (as opposed to the Bootstrap built in collapse.js plugin which only requires some markup) but it shouldn't be that difficult.

[ScottishWolverine]

That's promising that you think there's a solution to this. Out of interest would we code in things like...

"[Estus] Inside the roof pick up the Estus Flask Shard from up in the rafters" so that we toggle the [Estus] part of it?

How do you guys visualize this?

[Algent]

@CL4PTP Thank you for you answer. I assumed it should be possible but I'm really bad at Javascript so I had to ask.

@ZKjellberg Any thoughts on this ?

@ScottishWolverine In my head it would be something like: <li class="quest">Speak to X.</li> <li class="ring">Get that ring here.</li> Assuming it does use a class to work.

[ZKjellberg]

The idea of adding a filter to toggle is interesting and I like it, though that seems a bit challenging to implement. If we can find a nice approach, it would be a nice addition to please the 100% seekers.

One concern is this might show sections as 5/25 incomplete when people filter out the minor items.

[Algent]

I decided to give it a try and made a draft: http://algent.github.io/dark-souls-3-cheat-sheet/ (commit) The totals are updated to ignore the hidden entries.

It still need some work:

• Right now if a section is collapsed or you use the "hide completed" it will also no longer be counted.
• The buttons look bad like that, they need some CSS. And maybe switch them to a floating vertical toolbar on the right side ?.
• More/Less/Other Categories ?

[ScottishWolverine]

Looks like great work @Algent!

I'm not sure what the issue on the first bullet point is exactly. If I ,for example, collect everything but Misc (and uncheck that) in the Cemetery of Ash, then hide completed It is still "DONE" and counted. Am I missing what the problem is?

A floating vertical toolbar is also a nice idea but I wouldn't strain yourself if you are unable to sort this out. Buttons at the top still do the job.

The only other categories you could add if you really wanted to are for covenants and keys but I think this may be okay to be in the quest line since many are related to NPCs?

I only see one issue for as far as myself coding up some of the items. Take for example my Sword Master Saber line. It has weapons and armor. Should I split this up? Currently it comes under weapons. Ideally I'd like to group things to make it more streamlined but based on the category names I might have to make exceptions? Let me know what you think!

Seriously though, it looks very neat altogether.

[Algent]

@ScottishWolverine About the first issue, right now it wont count anything hidden even if it's not by the filter. So if you have like 1/15 on Cemetery and "Hide completed" the next time you toggle any filter you will have 0/14.

For the toolbar, ok I'll leave it like that for now. I only did little tweaks to it.

Covenants are fine in the quest line I think too. The keys are a mix of quest and some other misc stuff.

Which bring me to the issue I forgot to speak about but you didn't: Yes it's better to avoid splitting entries. We need to be able to set multiples categories like this class="f_mat f_misc" and only hide them if all of them are hidden. I just updated my draft with a working prototype to resolve this. It's currently on the "Ravenous Crystal Lizard"(mat+misc) "Sword Master Saber"(weapon+armor) entries.

I'll try to fix the counter tomorrow.

[EDIT] Nevermind, counter is fixed. Almost ready for PR ? Going to sleep now.

[ZKjellberg]

@Algent This is wonderful work. I think this is a fantastic approach as we can satisfy those seeking a 100% guide and easily toggle down the material for those seeking to avoid the noise. I really like how you managed to update the progress status to avoid confusion.

Please open a pull request to track changes and we'll look into a merge soon.

[ScottishWolverine]

Excellent changes! I'll resume work on the 100% checklist now and update later.

[ZKjellberg]

I've merged in @ScottishWolverine PR #86 which adds High Wall of Lothric. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on his additions and the functionality of the filtering system.

NOTE: There is a bug with sub-bullets not receiving checkboxes which is being investigated. See Issue #90

[ScottishWolverine]

I'm very open to having outside help making sure the 100% guide reads well and covers everything needed. If anyone asks about it on the reddit I'll encourage their help but if you also see people looking to help please ask them to PM me :)

[ZKjellberg]

Definitely will. I've been trying to redirect them to you with their feedback. This is why I wanted to add High Wall of Lothric early to gauge reactions and also show that zones are being added in stages, allowing others to participate and not conflict on work.

[ZKjellberg]

Closing this issue to migrate discussion to the new Issue