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Zamiell / stardew-valley

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Update Min-Max_Guide.md #32

Closed hawstom closed 2 years ago

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Extensive discussed edits to Win Friends route. Some edits to "save money for Fiberglass Rod".

hawstom commented 2 years ago

I already submitted this, but there was a typo.

Extensive discussed edits to Win Friends route. Some edits to "save money for Fiberglass Rod".

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

can you revert your last commit, because it blew away my previous two commits

hawstom commented 2 years ago

For this guide, I have been using the Github.com interface instead of the command line, and I am fumbling around a bit. I am not sure how to revert, but I will hunt around.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

ok, no problem, i will revert it

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Thanks. Sorry for the poor workflow.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

are you a programmer? have u used git before?

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

also go ahead and re-do your edits now, make sure you are on latest commit first though

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Yeah. I love git. But I use it from the command line. And I haven't been doing that for this.

I installed github desktop, and I am going to try to get used to it. I found how to revert with that gui. It seems more full-featured than the browser interface.

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Also, thinking about branches is a bit different with this than with software, so I have been a bit ham-handed. Sorry about that.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

ugh, don't use github desktop, it is terrible

just use command line, if you are on windows, git comes with Git Bash, which is what I always use

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

although usually i make PR edits from the website, since it is handy for that

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Well, maybe that's what I will do. Pull requests are new to me. I haven't been on very big teams. So I have to get used to those. This is good for me.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

yeah, pull requests are good to get used to. i maintain some open source software so i am real used to getting PRs and the general workflow, now that i understand everything i like it a lot

hawstom commented 2 years ago
  1. Do you use the gh cli? Or just use normal git and then manage the pull requests in the browser?
  2. Would I clone directly from your account to my local, or would I clone, push, and pull to my github account and issue pull requests from that repo?
Zamiell commented 2 years ago

Do you use the gh cli?

yes, its very nice for two reasons: 1) you don't have to type git clone, you can just copy from the website the entire gh command and paste it in 2) you can type gh checkout pr 123 if you need to mess with someone's PR

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

Would I clone directly from your account to my local, or would I clone, push, and pull to my github account and issue pull requests from that repo?

um no, if you are working on a PR then you would clone your fork like right now your pr is coming from here: https://github.com/hawstom/stardew-valley/tree/win-friends-route-per-discussion

hawstom commented 2 years ago

OK. Yeah. That seems right. Let me know if there are any other issues with this PR.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

it looks like you still haven't redone the edits from the revert, can you do that now?

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

i.e. there havn't been any commits since Revert "Create Min-Max_Guide.md"

hawstom commented 2 years ago

See what you think of this. It has your suggestions and your recent edits. I really like this and I am eager to test it.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

you should not have any field snacks because you are saving all of your acorns, right?

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

i changed the recommendation to just always sell spring foragables, and worry about the CC quest later on

also, i dont think you should ever sell spring onions, since they are 0.62/0.56 GPE, and the extra wood is useful later on for the additional chests

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Field Snacks: I think I lost something in my edits. The previous version said (I don't know why it make the point) not to ship Field Snacks that may have come from a Garbage Can. That seems like quite a corner case to me. Make it however you want. I was just poorly trying to preserve the old content.

Spring Onions: If you are desperate for money, you are desperate. And they are no more worthless than Fiber. I think it boils down to an accounting decision for tomorrow's critical path toward a Fiberglass Rod. It's not something I think the guide can dictate.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

Field Snacks: I think I lost something in my edits. The previous version said (I don't know why it make the point) not to ship Field Snacks that may have come from a Garbage Can. That seems like quite a corner case to me. Make it however you want. I was just poorly trying to preserve the old content.

i see, yeah i agree that it is a corner case, lets delete it for now

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

Spring Onions: If you are desperate for money, you are desperate. And they are no more worthless than Fiber. I think it boils down to an accounting decision for tomorrow's critical path toward a Fiberglass Rod. It's not something I think the guide can dictate.

i could be wrong but it seems really unlikely that selling spring onions would make the difference between being able to buy the lv 2 rod before willy closes and not being able to.

are you sure?

hawstom commented 2 years ago

I'm thinking hard about this, and I am not sure. I am thinking hard about the critical path on Spring 2.

Not sure. What do you think?

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

i think that if you just do a few runs where you practice day 2 a few times, you will get real good at fishing mini-game and this will become a non-issue =p

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Hahaha. I know it's tempting to think that. But I have been playing Stardew Valley a long time, I love fishing, and I never get any better. I have been playing the piano for decades, and I am no good. Some of us are simply not as dexterous as others. And if I get better, all that does is make me useless to write from the mediocre fisher's perspective. :-D

I can tell you this (as a competent mediocre Stardew fisher):

I am not frustrated in the least by Stardew Valley fishing. I am happy with my skills. They are adequate for who I am and what I have. But those are my stats, and they aren't unusually bad.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

keep in mind the time at which you buy the lv2 rod is mostly contingent in how much money you make from foragables on day 1, as opposed to how "good" you are at the fishing minigame. i've had plenty of runs where i never switch back to the bamboo rod at all, and just do all training rod. maybe the guide should be edited to say to never switch back to bamboo rod if you suck at fishing. (in this context, perfect catches would only matter from X AM to 9 AM)

hawstom commented 2 years ago

It's also contingent on reaching fishing level 2, which takes some combination of hours and player skill. And hours also can be contingent on how much money you make on day 1 (if you are able to fish instead of going to the museum or even the beach). So money on day 1 is paramount, especially if player skill is not super high.

Maybe there are super poor fishers who wouldn't want to switch back to the bamboo pole because they can't catch anything with it. I can catch all the pertinent fish fine with the Bamboo Pole. I am in that fuzzy gray competent area between hopeless and stellar. And the forum discussions seemed to indicate that this is a big fuzzy area. There was no clear consensus about the Training Rod. Does it or does it not increase XP rate for a given mediocre player?

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Here's that reference I keep mentioning: https://forums.stardewvalley.net/threads/level-up-fishing-fast-vs-the-training-rod

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

Does it or does it not increase XP rate for a given mediocre player?

well yes, of course it does, right? lets take this step by step

1) how fishing works is that you get a certain amount of XP per fish caught, and you get a 2.4x multiplier if you get a "Perfect" catch. 2) every player, regardless of skill, will be able to catch every fish that is hooked. (with respect to fish on Spring 2) 3) the only difference that skill makes is whether or not you get a perfect catch. 4) whether or not you get a perfect catch is a combination of your current fishing level (which determines the bar size) and player skill. 5) the point of the training rod is that it sets the player's fishing skill equal to level 5, which gives you a huge bar. 6) with the training rod, every player will be able to perfect catch every fish, regardless of skill level, because having a level 5 fishing bar is huge. 7) the general idea is that moving from the bamboo pole to the training rod at level 0 is a good idea, because it will be near-impossible to perfect catch every fish otherwise. 8) at fishing level 2, it's ambiguous as to whether moving from the bamboo pole to the training rod is a good idea or not, because it's unclear as to whether you can still perfect catch every fish with a level 2 fishing bar. 9) at fishing level 4, it's probably a bad idea to move from the bamboo pole to the training rod, because the difference between the level 4 bar and the level 5 bar is very tiny. 10) it's objectively a bad idea to move from the bamboo pole to the training rod at level 5 and beyond, since it provides no benefit.

my main point is that even in the situation where you switch from the Bamboo Pole to the Training Rod as soon as humanly possible, and then you never switch back, you should still be able to purchase the level 2 rod before willy closes without a problem. thus, i don't see player skill as affecting this process very much.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

i wouldn't trust anything that people say on those forums and would instead get information from the min-max community and/or the wiki.

hawstom commented 2 years ago
  1. Yes.
  2. I don't follow. The only fish for which this is true is the first catch. We may assume that the audience of the guide can catch most every fish, and we can say so explicitly, that "This guide is for players who are able to catch every fish that is hooked on Spring 2." (Of course that cuts me out, but that's okay.)
  3. Again, this is only true if you make it true by defining the audience. I recall losing one fish (for whatever excuse, I lost it) on my last trial yesterday. That said, speaking only for myself, yes, I catch nearly all fish on Spring 2 whichever rod I am using.
  4. Yes.
  5. Yes.
  6. I don't follow again. This is only true if you define it to be true. In the real world it is not true. Speaking only for myself, no, I do not get even nearly every fish perfect.
  7. Yes.
  8. Yes. But I have an idea about that below.
  9. Yes. I have made this point repeatedly in other places.
  10. Yes. Obviously.
  11. I guess you would need to watch me fish. :-D Yes. Player skill makes plenty of difference, because 100% perfect catches with the Training Rod is not mediocre fishing.

My suggestion is this:

If you reach fishing level 2 with hours to spare (2 or 3 p.m.? You tell me what time it is when you generally reach it), switch to the Bamboo Pole to maximize your income until the Fish Shop closes. (I don't know this is optimal, but it could be.)

Speaking for myself, I usually reach fishing level 2 with very little time to spare. So I wouldn't really have time to switch to the Bamboo Pole. And I need to rely on 1200 gp at the start of fishing to help me afford the Fiberglass Rod.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

The only fish for which this is true is the first catch.

what's different about the first catch?

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

You tell me what time it is when you generally reach it

it's super variable, there's no "normal" time. it mostly depends on whether or not you got like a bunch of foraging shipped + whether or not you got bubbles.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

Again, this is only true if you make it true by defining the audience. I recall losing one fish (for whatever excuse, I lost it) on my last trial yesterday. That said, speaking only for myself, yes, I catch nearly all fish on Spring 2 whichever rod I am using.

losing 1 fish over the course of the whole day isn't that bad. so it sounds like we agree that nearly everyone who reads the guide will be able to catch almost every fish, with some small exceptions for only the worst fishers, and these exceptions aren't super significant.

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

I don't follow again. This is only true if you define it to be true. In the real world it is not true. Speaking only for myself, no, I do not get even nearly every fish perfect.

what percentage of perfect do you get with training rod?

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

I guess you would need to watch me fish. :-D

i feel like we might be getting confused and/or talking past each other. allow me try to break this down further. from your own admission, you 1) only lost 1 hooked fish over the course of the entire day, and 2) did not get 100% perfect catches with the training rod, getting X% perfect catches instead.

lets examine each of these in turn.

1 is relevant to gold income + experience gain. with respect to the question of "will you be able to buy lv 2 rod before willy closes", we don't care all all about experience gain. we only care about the gold loss. (because players will always get lv 2 fishing before getting 1800g.) the gold loss from exactly one fish is something around 60g, right? the only time that this would matter if you were short exactly 60g for the rod when willy closed at 5pm, or something along those lines (which seems extremely unlikely).

2 is relevant only to experience gain (and not gold income), since perfect catches with the training rod don't affect quality. with respect to the question of "will you be able to buy lv 2 rod before willy closes", we don't care all all about experience gain. so 2 is a non-factor here.

thus, my initial claim that player skill does not play a significant factor in whether or not you will be able to buy the lv 2 rod before willy closes seems to be correct.

hawstom commented 2 years ago

First catch: This video I made explains and demonstrates. It's a fake minigame. https://youtu.be/5buMpOWzoQM

Time to level 2: I was thinking about running some standardized tests fishing with Training Rod and no bubbles. That's the only variable that should matter other than player skill (assuming that fish luck isn't a huge variable). Based on my previous tests, I am thinking that I need 8 hours of non-bubbles fishing.

Catch every fish: Yes. We agree. Whew. Super poor fishers may need to be "defined" out of the guide or told that they can skip the river on Spring 3.

Perfect every fish: I think I am getting about 50% perfect (believe it or not!) with the Training Rod. This is why I said much earlier that it wasn't crystal clear to me (and other people at the forum) whether the Training Rod is very helpful. My conclusion is that it's helpful, even if only slightly, to everybody. And it gets obviously helpful to super great and super poor fishers.

Your summary:

  1. I agree except that sometimes with great care, I can start fishing with 1300+ gp on hand and have the 1800gp before I reach level 2. It's close. I am just saying that the money is not always a clear laggard for me.
  2. No. Getting to level 2 before the Shop closes is challenging for me. 2 is a big factor. Experience gain matters very much to me as to whether I will be able to buy the rod, and I am telling myself "More Perfects! Reach level 2! Must get rod! Only 1 more hour! Can I do it?" all day long. XP and money are both challenges.
hawstom commented 2 years ago

I will do some calculations using your spreadsheet. Maybe that will be helpful. Stay tuned.

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Here are my calculations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hd7M6ITTDcdGbqGiTtgrp0vgXuJqLaCP2xJ3LaV8gbU/edit#gid=55943689

Bottom line is you seem to need something equivalent to 100% catches and 50% perfect catches if you have 7 hours to fish. Of course money is an entire other concern. If you don't have perfects to spare, you probably need to forego treasures until you get to level 2. Is that good thinking?

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

This video I made explains and demonstrates.

oh, i see, i didnt know that you couldn't fail the first catch

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

assuming that fish luck isn't a huge variable

my base assumption is that it is not a huge variable

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

I can start fishing with 1300+ gp on hand and have the 1800gp before I reach level 2. It's close

oh, that's interesting. yeah i guess that would make sense if you miss enough perfect catches

Zamiell commented 2 years ago

i am constantly clicking really fast when i fish, are you doing that?

hawstom commented 2 years ago

Yeah. Like I said, I have played Stardew Valley a long time, and I enjoy fishing. I admit it's embarrassing that my Perfect Catch rate (on Spring 2 from the pier) is only a little higher than not playing the minigame at all as I have documented at these places: https://youtu.be/gk49jVBv01s https://community.playstarbound.com/threads/y1-spring-2-fishing-training-rod-and-trout-soup-test.160459/