Restrict Landwehrs Yorkshire March. Era scaling issue.

[adaneslavo]

Add restrictions:

• garrison

• fort

• citadel

• ???

[theazuresoul]

Is this restriction necessary? It's a small amount of culture, far less than you would get from a building of equivalent cost, and not affected by percent modifiers. Restricting it would make it more difficult for the AI to use. I don't care either way, but I don't see this as necessary.

[adaneslavo]

We will see. I added scaling with era and game speed. We can always rework it.

[theazuresoul]

I don't see era and game speed as necessary either. This is essentially a per turn yield, and those don't scale with game speed. And most constant yields don't scale with era either.

[pineappledan]

Even with the current implementation, the scaling would be hardly noticeable. I wonder if that isn't simply unnecessary burden for the computer?

I don't think unit yields should scale if they are static yields, Units obsolete, unlike buildings, so they aren't purpose-built to be relevant in later eras

[pineappledan]

reopened because there seems to still be some discussion about what this promotion should be.

Okay, so do you guys want this to be a considerable source of culture, something that makes a material contribution to the Austrian economy? I had always envisioned this promotion as an added flavor, but not necessarily a core competency of the unit.

Making it forts and citadels compatible means they can generate culture on tiles outside the workable distance of cities, but it doesn't mean you would be milling out landwehr as an actual source of empire-wide culture.

[adaneslavo]

Units get obsolete, but promotions stay after upgrade in most cases. And if it scale for landwehr on fast from 1c on industrial to 2 on information it is not such big deal. How it is implemented in VP? I made such scaling for all buildings and units, code like BG, but sometimes different values (depending on what era building or unit is from).

Yields on kill are also theoretically static yield and scale scale with era directly (they use unitcombatstrength for that).

I checked Qizilbash i.e.:

• Renaissance (Gold = 1, GAP and Faith = 2)
• Industrial (Gold = 1, GAP and Faith = 2)
• Atomic (Gold = 1, GAP and Faith = 3)
• Modern (Gold = 2, GAP and Faith = 4)
• Information (Gold = 2, GAP and Faith = 4).

It is just one more factor to thing it is calculating even if this scaling was no present. So it is not such big deal for computer power.

[adaneslavo]

I'm in favor of restricting it (Yorkshire) somehow. But I'm not tied to forts, citadels and garrison so much. We can also raise the base value of culture.

[Infixo]

What is this Landwehr supposed to do? I read texts and it's totally unclear - it's nicely written but doesn't say anything game related.

[adaneslavo]

Landwehr has 2 basic bonuses from new promotions:

• Yorkshire gives culture if unit is in your territory and is:

1. standing on fort or citadel
2. is garrisoned in the city
   • imperial vigilance adds bonus CS to landwehr if it is in CS territory.

Help text is indeed somewhat unhelpful.

[pineappledan]

To put it into perspective. I think that 2 culture per landwehr anywhere in friendly could realistically mean your army is outputting as much culture as a 2nd tier city. Given the AI's love of unit spam, its higher unit cap, and its general disregard for unit cap, It seems like making the culture's only limitation that you are in your own territory feels like handing the AI a loaded gun.

I thought the %CS boost was also in your own territory, not just CS territory?

[adaneslavo]

Code said differently so I adjusted descriptions.

[Infixo]

Re: Vigilance. Don't you get 3 events now when a unit is trained?

[Infixo]

Also, since you've got promotion with FriendlyLandsModifier=25 then why do you need to switch it off and on? You grant promotion (from Unit_FreePromotions) and engine does the rest assuming that your definition of "friendly" land is the same as in the game.

[adaneslavo]

Nope, we need to also check if CS is ally. Text need to be updated. That cannot be done in sql. It is dummy promotion to inform you about what it does. Second shows up when effect is triggered. We cannot to this other way probably. Look also into Yellow Brow, Black Tug etc.

Problem with this type of events is:

• on move doesn't work quite well with creation and training units because you can't see in the same turn what promotions unit has (it returns nil for that one turn). Rest 2 events (oncreate and on train) don't have such problem. Maybe some dll tweak? Then oncreate and onbuild wouldn't be necessary. One function to rule them all!
• on create is triggered on gifts and spawns units but not training in the city so they are not overlapping each other.

Same pattrn is used for Iron Chariot, Goedendag, Ballista and maybe some more I can't remember.

[Infixo]

So... this Friendly field doesn’t work when CS is an ally? Weird.

[adaneslavo]

• Friendly is probably tied to both: yours and CS territory and we need only CS.
• I don't know if it is treating about ally and friend or only friend or only ally. Only third option would be satisfying.

[pineappledan]

Okay so it IS active in owned territory (base promotion), and also CS territory (dummy promotion).

I think with the restriction of garrisons, forts and citadels the culture per turn could be increased to 3. I wouldn't go beyond that though. While I think it's a nice bonus, I don't think this unit should be rewarding you for spamming them in peace time to mill culture. Get enough for your cities and fortifications and that should be fine

[adaneslavo]

I reverted base value to 0 so it is now only allied. What was the initial plan? I thouht it was only CS.

[pineappledan]

From Blue Ghost's description on forum page 1: "Imperial Vigilance (+25% CP in friendly territory)"

From 4UC spreadsheet: Imperial Vigilance (+25% CS in owned territory and in allied city-state territory)

[adaneslavo]

So friendly means your territory only?

[adaneslavo]

Ok, then I will change it back. What about that era scaling issue?

[pineappledan]

it's 0.2 culture. You need 5 landwehr to get 1 additional culture per era. frankly it's so immaterial it won't be noticed even it is there.

[Infixo]

So, you need an Ally CS but not Friend? Well, you need really precise descriptions for this sort of „little differences” or people will get confused :)

[pineappledan]

I don't think static yields on units should scale, because supply cap increases -> more unit -> more yields. ie. scaling.

Where this debate will really matter is that Tarkhan proposal, with it yielding 10 culture/20 Gold every turn in a razing city

[pineappledan]

Ally, friend. I don't think It matters which one. If You're playing austria you're likely allied with everyone anyways.

The key was to differentiate this from Berber Cavalry, which gets the 25% bonus in owned territory, and the Shoshone UA, which gives 15% in owned territory. I think giving it to both allies and friends helps drive home the difference more and justify the promotion's existence. I have always been perfectly been content with giving the Landwehr the Berber Cavalry's Homeland Guardian promotion, and being done with all this business. The yorkscher marsch thing is different enough that I didn't feel 2 unique promotions was necessarily warranted.

[adaneslavo]

I made it to be: your + friendly CS + ally CS for sake of simplicity.

@Infixo What is the situation with static yields scaling on unit in VP? What about those dll changes to onMove event I wrote earlier? Is it possible?

[theazuresoul]

I don't think there are any units in VP with static yields. If there were, I don't think they would scale. Static yields on buildings don't scale.

[Infixo]

What do you mean "static yields", like yields for kills? What unit in VP uses those, I need an example, so I can tell you exactly how it is processed. OnMove - I was tracking few days ago a situation with barb camp capture, so the barb unit would join the capturer. The code for unit creation and movement is so complex that I won't dare touch it. Sorry.

[adaneslavo]

Ok, so we must stay with what we have now: 3 functions, each taking its own part and sometimes overlapping themselves, but together covering every situation met on battlefield.

On kill is used for example by Pictish Warrior. It scales with combat strength of defeated unit so not direcly but the other way scales with era (later era, stronger opponents). We added for example Landwehrs culture per turn (3c). Should scale somehow with progressing eras? I made qizilbash example in this thread earlier. You can also look there. It works like that now.

[pineappledan]

Static yields defined as yields per turn, independent of any condition. In our mod's case we have 3 units that have yield per turn "flows"

• Landwehr (industrial): 2 culture per turn in friendly (or 2 culture in garrison/fort/citadel)
• Qizilbash (renaissance): 2 GAP, 2 Gold and 1 Faith per turn in enemy territory
• Tarkhan (ancient): 10 culture and 20 gold per turn in a city that is being razed

I agree with BG/Azuresoul. I can see an exception being made for Tarkhan, who has a very specific yields per turn condition (being stationed in a razing city), but that's it. If you want more unit yields from static flows from units, then the obvious fix is to build more units. You are only limited by supply cap, and unit maintenance

The underlying issue being that yields on kill scale on enemy unit strength, and getting more units does not necessarily net you more kills. A better comparison would be Japan's yields on level, which can be triggered off every trained unit simply from having barracks/dojo/mil.Aca. Do those scale?

yields per turn for a unit simply existing, however, are infinitely scalable by army size

[adaneslavo]

I added era scaling also to Holkan (science on Goody huts), Klepht (yield on fight) and Dhanurgraha (culture on promotion). Rework them all if think they are not necessary.

Will AI use Tarkhan ability properly?

What about buildings? Are they ok?

[pineappledan]

Does science/culture from Dojo's yields on levels scale for Japan?

[adaneslavo]

I barely played Japan so I cannot tell that.

[pineappledan]

As per ElliotS, Japan's yields on level do not scale. I think that is as strong an argument against making the culture per turn scaling as we are likely to get

A further support against scaling is the Discipline policy (authority tree), which gives 2 culture and 1 happiness in city if a unit is garrisoned. This does not scale with era either

We have no directly comparable yield-per-turn flows tied to unit promotions, but we do have yields-per-turn tied to units by policies, and yield-on-promotion for Japan, which argues that increased yields from more XP on buildings and larger armies are enough scaling

[Infixo]

Pictish Warrior doesn't scale with era. It simply uses opponent's CS for calculations. "Scales with Era" is e.g. when you get 10 in Classical, 20 in Medieval, 30 in Renaissance, etc. It seems that there are no units that works like this in VP. Dojo scales culture, etc. based on unit level, nothing to do with era. I think only Policies and Beliefs have effects that scale with Era.

[adaneslavo]

Ok, I will revert era scaling from units.