Ukrainian lower case italic `ґ` looks extremely narrow

[idea-list]

I really love this font but there's one glyph that bothers me: italic lower case Ukrainian ґ (ghe with upturn, U+0491). For me (I'm Ukrainian) the chosen shape looks very unusual: it is too narrow (see the last image).

Could you please consider changing this glyph?

In my opinion, ґ must have a significant top bar/arc (even the italic one). Currently it almost looks like a vertical-ish stroke with an attached "accent" (like a weird i or a very tiny integral sign). Sorry, I don't know the font terminology.

For reference, here's how we are taught to write ґ:

I've never edited the fonts before but I tried to create a quick and dirty mock-up to show the rough shape I want the letter to have: I just moved the "upturn" 80-ish units rightwards

Also here are a few examples of italic fonts from Google Fonts that generally have the shape I expect: Minor nitpick: I don't quite like the bottom rightward curl that Times New Roman's and Brygada 1918's ґ have, but that's not a big deal. I do like the bottom leftward curl that your ґ has — it seems very logical when compared with the handwritten ґ.

[frankrolf]

Thank you for your comment – it’s always valuable to get feedback from native speakers :-) I appreciate the comparison with other designs; and I can see how Source Serif’s ґ may appear a bit narrow.

I have a question though – in some designs (Georgia, Noto, also Lora to some extent) the occurrence of ґ introduces a lot of whitespace – which visually rips the word apart. Is this something readers are just used to? I guess the little tail in TNR and Brygada aims at counteracting that.

Based on your compelling feedback, I will make the Source Serif Italic ґ a little wider – will keep you posted when a new release is ready.

[idea-list]

I have a question though – in some designs (Georgia, Noto, also Lora to some extent) the occurrence of ґ introduces a lot of whitespace – which visually rips the word apart. Is this something readers are just used to?

It's a bit nuanced but the short answer is yes, I'd say the readers are just used to that.

Long answer: so we have two letters that are very similar in regular print text: г and ґ. The former one is extremely common in all kinds of words. The latter one is possibly the most rarely used letter of the Ukrainian alphabet and appears in a few commonly used words + in some archaic and dialect words + in some loan words to represent the sound [ɡ] (which is not very common in modern Ukrainian).

So even though ґ itself is not that common, the readers are still very well used to seeing г in print non-italic texts in any position inside of the word (e.g. граматика, агрегат, миготіння, пиріг). I assume those words also have a similar 'issue' with whitespace inside of the word.

Now the handwritten forms of г and ґ significantly differ from the print versions. You got the italic version of г right! But the twist is that unlike print letters, handwritten ґ is not a minor modification of handwritten ґ, it's a different shape.

I've grabbed examples from a copybook (kids handwriting practice book?). The top ones are Гг and the bottom ones are Ґґ:

However even though the handwritten lower case ґ also has a large whitespace underneath its top arc in the above screenshot, in practice that isn't an issue because one is supposed to connect next letter to the bottom of the ґ. So the connecting line goes across that white when writing.

Here I've typed a few different Ukrainian words with ґ in different position between various letters using a font for those practice books (top row):

Word list (also агроґрунтознавство features both г and ґ for comparison):

Зиґмунд Зиґфрід Аґрус аґрус Зґвалтування зґвалтування ґелґотіння ґирлиґа ґніт ґудзик агроґрунтознавство зиґзаґ кружґанок леґінь обґрунтування підґрунтя уґрунтовування фіґляр

I understand that italic font doesn't have to exactly follow the handwritten shapes. I'd say that most of the above fonts use a somewhat stylized slanted version of regular print ґ in their italics. And in my opinion they do look good (or I'm too used to the way they look).

I like the look of Georgia and PT Serif. Lora's variant is also nice and interesting because it adds a two-sided serif at the bottom (that one wouldn't use in handwriting).

I agree that the rightward tail in TNR and Brygada likely aimed to compensate the whitespace gap. But as maybe you can see now the thing that makes those seem a bit odd to me is that the handwritten forms have a very different (acute, not circular) angle between the 'leg' of ґ and the line that connects the next letter to it on the right side. Meanwhile the letter ґ itself has a similar circular-ish tail pointing left which makes TNR and Brygada variants look somewhat twisted (at least for me).

I was genuinely positively surprised that your current italic ґ has a leftward curl like the handwritten form (and like no other italic serif) so maybe there's a third way to compensate for the whitespace with a handwritten-like arched (not straight) top part too? I don't know, the rough version I did in the initial post doesn't look balanced at all but maybe you can come up with something.

Just to clarify, I don't insist on the handwritten form at all. I don't know what works or doesn't. This wall of text is purely for context to hopefully give you multiple ideas to choose from. And even though I prefer Georgia's variant over TNR's I don't think it's that big of a deal, so feel free to go with TNR's curl if you really want to do something with the whitespace.

TLDR: yes, I think we are just used to that.

[frankrolf]

Thanks again! Very useful indeed :-)