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aesculus / EVTO-App-Feedback

A project to track bugs and ideas for the EVTO App
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Change Charger Types for Regions #331

Closed aesculus closed 7 years ago

aesculus commented 7 years ago

Need to do a bit of research on the charging rates.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

Here in Austria we use for destination charging: - Standard socket 10A (we call it "Schuko" which stands short for Schutzkontakt) which is mostly 2kW - one phase 16A (3,7kW) - three phase CEE 16A (11kW) - three phase CEE 32A (22kW)

aesculus commented 7 years ago

Basically we need to exchange the NA charger types for other region variants when the user selects another region. This will involve the server logic too since it uses charger characteristics to determine charging time.

This will not be an easy fix.

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

This seems like a V2 enhancement.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

Yeah, from a NA perspective. :-)

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

And an installed base perspective.

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

Here's an approach that could provide a workaround for different voltage/amperage combinations in other countries.

Have a switch between 'basic' and 'advanced' charger selection. The 'basic' group would be the single list picker of charger options you have today. 'Advanced' would switch to a dual numeric control arrangement, with a voltage field and an amperage field. The user would key in their unique combo. EVTO doesn't need to know what that combo is called in their locality. They save the waypoint as a favorite, and now they have Mom's Schutzkontakt connector available with accurate metrics and you can do accurate computations on the available power.

I haven't given any thought to what the switching UI would look like, but it wouldn't be too hard. If this seems like it has some traction, I can mock something up.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

EVTO needs to know the charging rate. But the problem is that some of the chargers (esp Level III) are not linear so you need to know where you come in and where you leave.

So if I knew the charging rate algorithm I would be good. That needs to be researched for these other chargers.

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

Do you know the charging rates for NEMA 5-15, 5-20, 14-50? Can you infer the charging rate for different voltage/amperage combos from those? His list is quite far from level 3 chargers - they'd all be painfully slow by our standards. And even an approximation of the sweet spot rate (between 20-80% SoC) would be better than nothing.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

I have this table I built: ev_connector_type = { 'NONE' : {label:'No Charger', map_label: ' ', kw:0}, 'TESLA' : {label:'Tesla Superchargers', map_label: 'S', kw:120}, 'J1772COMBO' : {label:'SAE J1772 Combo (Level 3)', map_label: l3,kw:90}, 'CHADEMO' : {label:'CHAdeMO (Level 3)', map_label: 'C', kw:45}, 'HPWC' : {label:'Tesla HPWC (Level 2)', map_label: 'H', kw:19}, 'J1772' : {label:'J1772 (Level 2)', map_label: 'J' , kw:19.2}, 'NEMA1450' : {label:'NEMA 14-50 (Level 2)', map_label: l1, kw:9.6}, 'NEMA520' : {label:'NEMA 5-20 (Level 1)', map_label: l1, kw: 1.6}, 'NEMA515' : {label:'NEMA 5-15 (Level 1)', map_label: l1, kw:1.4}, }; I could add a region column to it. Note even though I have kw rates for the Level 3's, they get a special curve in EVTO calcs. Those are just placeholders for the max.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

My suggestion for all these EU folks was to deal with it until I had time to work on real values. I told them to go find a close equivalent and use that when necessary. One person threatened to hold back my $2.99 PRO fee until such a time that I supported it. :-(

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

The formula for kW for a given volt/amp combo is: Voltage Amperage .80. The .80 derates the circuit. Let's take NEMA 14-50 as an example. 240 volts 50 Amps 0.80= 9.6kW (The 0.80 derating is because you're not supposed to draw more than 80% of a breaker's rating on a constant basis, according to NEC code.)

Standard socket 10A (we call it "Schuko" which stands short for Schutzkontakt) which is mostly 2kW - one phase 16A (3,7kW) - three phase CEE 16A (11kW) - three phase CEE 32A (22kW)

Suppose he had the Advanced Volt/Amp fields available to him. For his lowest power outlet he'd input 240V (typical for Europe), 10A: 240 10 0.8 = 1.92kW, which he referred to as 2kW. Pretty close. For his one-phase 16A outlet: 240 * 16 = 3.84kW (he's not derating that one) I don't know the voltages for the CEE circuits, but the math's going to be consistent. This is a viable workaround without country-specific coding on your part.

I'd bet if you ask those folks who've contacted you about this if being able to input volts and amps as a short-term solution would be adequate, they'd welcome it.

But it would still be farther down the feature list :)

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

Not to beat this to death, but I just realized there's an even simpler solution.

Standard socket 10A (we call it "Schuko" which stands short for Schutzkontakt) which is mostly 2kW - one phase 16A (3,7kW) - three phase CEE 16A (11kW) - three phase CEE 32A (22kW)

In all cases, he's providing the kW of the connection. The advanced mode could simply be a simple numeric entry box where the user inputs the available kW of the charger. We could provide some guidelines in Help for computing available kW.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

Well if there are only three then why don't we just do the three and call it?

I think it's more of wanting an appropriate choice than 100% accuracy.

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

This is actually a perfect opportunity to address another issue that I haven't written up yet that affects all regions.

Consider the US market. The picker lists the most common charging options. But there are other charging options. For example, 240v 30A dryer outlets are commonly used by Tesla owners staying as a guest at someone's house. And people also use 14-50 outlets at RV campgrounds, but dial back their charging amperage so they don't blow the circuit breaker, or because they're dragging a trailer than they need to plug into the same circuit.

For example, here's a quote from Jim Vandegriff on a thread about towing with an X:

Our campground - we were just able to plug into the 50 amp circuit (dialed down to 27 amps in the car because we also plug in our Airstream on the 30 amp circuit) because the location of the electrical box made the cord stretch.

So this is a golden opportunity to add the ability to support less-typical charging numbers.

Let's add a item to the bottom of the picker, 'Custom'. Selecting Custom enables a numeric input field where you can enter the kW available. That supports folks in foreign countries with unfamiliar outlet configurations, it supports folks in the US charging at Mom's house. It's not the ideal solution for every circumstance, but it offers a perfectly reasonable placeholder until such time that you can address the detailed charging possibilities in every country.

customcharging copy

This could also be a nice opportunity to expose the default charging level for each of the other standard picker selections. For example, if the user picks HPWC, the kW field would display 19, but the field would be uneditable, so the text would be in gray. The downside to that is that the displayed level would be the maximum for that type of charging connection, but not necessarily the power that the user's car would be charging at. For example, the 19kW number you use for HPWC assumes a 100A breaker, and a car capable of charging at 80A. My HPWC is wired at 50A, and my car is limited to 48A charging, so I the most power I ever get at home is 208 40 = 8.3kW. (I'm on a three-phase circuit, hence the 208V). So that's a perfect opportunity for me to establish that my Home favorite has a custom charging level. We'd explain in the help text that the displayed kW number is the max for that type of circuit, and their actual charging rate would depend upon many other factors.

With respect to the preset charger options fitting in the picker, we can easily edit them down to fit by simply abbreviating '(Level x)' to '(L1)', '(L2)', '(L3)'.

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

Here's another example of an unfamiliar charging scenario from a TMC user in Switzerland:

I have underground parking here in Switzerland. It is very, very common. Along with running 400v triple phase to my two parking spots,

And another from Tesla forums:

I live in Belgium and a lot of chargers here are 3-phase 400V giving 22kW charging options. So those are the ones I seek out besides the supercharger. Maybe in the US it is not that common, but in Western Europe they are.

A new 'haL2' standard (High Amperage Level 2), 60-80A using a J1772 connector (up to 19.2kW). Plug-In NCW.

A document on international charging standards

A TMC discussion on various international charging standards

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

Another TMC discussion on charging options in Australia.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

What about this sort of simplified version of charging that is not perfect but close enough for all regions.

image

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

I think that adding these charging options is a good idea and should pacify the 'outside NA' crowd.

But my earlier comments about needing to also support custom charging levels stands. Inevitably someone will ask for it. Having it will cover any circumstance while you evaluate whether a new standard should be added to the list.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

It's boils down to this under the covers:

So a bespoke method that is linear is no big deal. One that uses a different curve is not an option for bespoke.

Right now the chargers are broken down into three categories:

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

I'm comfortable with telling users that specifying a custom level will be applied linearly without charging tapers. In almost every case I can think of, the custom rate is because they're dialing it down for some reason. We could limit the highest level that can be input for a custom charging level.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

For now I am going to go with this list. If they cannot find something close then so be it. We are already splitting hairs here.

image

EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

OK

aesculus commented 7 years ago

The trick with these Level 2 chargers that are higher than 11 kW is that the car charger will set the max value. I just changed these to multipliers since it was backwards as divisors.

Charger (amps)Multiplier of Time
402
481.666
721.111
801
EVGrokker commented 7 years ago

I'm closing this issue as implemented.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

I spent some time on this last night. While the method of using kWatts is sound, it can be a bit confusing for those looking for a standard description. Also mixing regions (NA and the rest of the world) makes the list bigger than it needs to be. I am also not happy with the algorithm to adjust the AC rates based on car chargers etc.

While people are used to thinking of AMPS that is only half the equation as volts play a big role too. The voltage is much more stable (generally only 2 or 3 per region) but the regions are not the same either (ie US can have 120, 208, 240 while EU might have 220, 400V and 3 phase too). In the end it all boils down to watts, That is actually 'Watt' is being consumed.

So I am going to reopen this again as I work through a more flexible, but also more regional, approach to this issue. It will not be what everyone wants, but in this case close is as best as we can get.

aesculus commented 7 years ago

Version 1.2 (50) has a generic charging time algorithm that is based on the in car charging capacity applied to the region's max Level 2 rate. If the connection is higher than the car's capacity it will be limited by the car.

This means only the Level 3 chargers use the more complex algorithms and all other charging is based on the regional max and the car's percentage of that max (Model S with dual chargers is currently the max).

Going forward then it is easy to add any additional Level 2 chargers as the only requirement will be what region (there are really only two areas - NA and other), and the EVCS capacity.