Closed VladimirAlexiev closed 7 years ago
Nice! All the "possible" etc should be mapped assuming it to be true and then using CRMinf to capture the level of belief in the statement.
Can we please avoid using CRMinf as one level of complexity too many?
Another option would be to use PX_likelihood as used by BM/ResearchSpace. It's a subprop of P2_has_type, applied on EX_Association, which is a subclass of E13
CRMinf describes the real complexity of argumentation. If you do not want this complexity you are free to use local solutions but they will be just that "local".
As with issue #39, many of these issues do not exist with our updated data. the Prefix field is populated for every ConXref in our updated data. The four role IDs are as follows: 1=Artist, 19=Sitter, 102=Secondary Artist/Maker and 4=Associated Person/Institution. Sorry I did not submit our Roles table to clarify that. Prefix, when it is not the same as the Role, is a more specific descriptor, like a sub-role.
@si-npg:
object=O, constituent=C, prefix=Copy after:, suffix=(Photographer)
Here is the updated pivot:
ROLES: 1=Artist, 19=Sitter, 102=Secondary Artist/Maker and 106=Associated Person/Institution Most objects have a Sitter OR Associated Person/Institution; most have at least one Artist, and some have Secondary Artists/Makers too--often multiples. Cast after: is used for a later cast after an original sculpture; Copy after: (Sculptor) is a copy by one sculptor--an actual artist--after another. Prefix is not a controlled field. We do our best to keep it clean/consistent, but it's not perfect. It's used to give further explanation to the very broad Role term. For human-readability, it can always be used instead of Role, but we do rely very heavily on the Rold field itself.
@si-npg Great explanation of the implicit conventions hidden in plain language with: Cast after: is used for a later cast after an original sculpture; Copy after: (Sculptor) is a copy by one sculptor--an actual artist--after another. These would be modeled differently with the latter introducing the notion of influence from the original artist onto the artist who is copying the sculpture. I guess "cast after" could use P130_shows_features_of the original sculpture to the new cast?
@si-npg What does "object=O, constituent=C, prefix=Copy after:, suffix=(Photographer)" mean? Does it mean that C created a photograph (not tracked in your system) that is a copy after O? Or is O the identifier of the new object (the photograph), and then how is the old object identified?
About roles: I'm puzzled why the same Prefix is sometimes used with several Roles.
@edgartdata: "Copy after: (Sculptor)" will map to crm:P130_shows_features_of. "Cast after" will map to more than that. Here's a proposed mapping, I call these "CRM Casing". We have plenty of examples like this for CONA associative (artwork) relations:
<newSculpture> crm:P130_shows_features_of <oldScuplture>.
<newSculpture> crm:P108i_was_produced_by <newSculpture-production>.
<newSculpture-production> crm:P14_carried_out_by <sculptor>.
<newSculpture> crm:P130_shows_features_of <oldScuplture>.
<oldSculpture> crm:P108i_was_produced_by <oldSculpture-production>.
<oldSculpture-production> crm:P16_used_specific_object <oldSculpture-mold>.
<oldSculpture-mold> a crm:E22_Man-Made_Object;
crm:P2_has_type aat:300024814. # mold (shaping equipment), aka cast (mold shaping equipment)
<newSculpture> crm:P108i_was_produced_by <newSculpture-production>.
<newSculpture-production> crm:P14_carried_out_by <sculptor>;
crm:P16_used_specific_object <oldSculpture-mold>.
@azaroth42 @steads @workergnome @edgartdata @si-npg Figure below made from above turtle using my rdfpuml tool:
As I said at the LA meeting in April, I think we need to make such prototypical models for all data areas. Otherwise I'm afraid confusion will reign: we can't be discussing this museum per museum, and in github issues. We need to document an overall model.
@VladimirAlexiev I am not sure why we would not want to use P_15_was_influenced_by for Copy after: (Sculptor) as that qualifier clearly emphasizes the influence of one artist on another?
"Copy after: (Sculptor)"
Spot-on @edgartdata !
@si-npg states "Copy after: (Sculptor) is a copy", that's why I think P130 is relevant.
I agree that P15 should also be used: but it is
I'm puzzled that each row has only one objectID, @si-npg please answer my question above
Here's updated modeling of "cast after" including P15, how do you like it?
Q: What does "object=O, constituent=C, prefix=Copy after:, suffix=(Photographer)" mean? Does it mean that C created a photograph (not tracked in your system) that is a copy after O? Or is O the identifier of the new object (the photograph), and then how is the old object identified?
A: O refers to the new object, which has a different medium than the original (which is why we add a suffix in this case; normally a copy is a copy in the same medium.) So the example above describes a an object in some medium other than photography that is a copy after a photograph.
Q: About roles: I'm puzzled why the same Prefix is sometimes used with several Roles. "Publisher" is most often used with role 102 "Secondary maker" and that makes sense. But what does it mean "Publisher" with role 1 "Artist"? Is it different from the previous bullet? And what does it mean "Publisher" with role 106 "Associated"?
A: Publisher in the role of artist occurs in 4 NPG objects, and I have requested that our curators to change these. (They were entered this way intenionally, but it's not necessary.) Publisher in the role of Associated Person occurrs in just 2 NPG objects, and I've already changed these, since they were just mistakes! So the Publisher prefix will not be an issue going forward. However, there may be other prifixes that are sometime used for one role and sometimes another. (I'll need to check whether any of these are included in our data set.)
@si-npg Thanks for the answers! Just for clarity: so the old object and its creator are not mentioned in this table?
The artist of the original object is entered as a "Secondary Artist" and does have a link to the object via the ConXrefs table. The original object itself, if it is entered in the database, is linked to the copy, but those object-to-object links are not included in our exported data. Additional relevant fields that I did not export are Historical Dates, where the date of the original is entered for objects that are copies; and Related Works and/or Notes--text fields which might reference the original work.
"Artist:" <new artist>, "Copy after:" <old artist>
"Artist:" <new artist> "(Photographer)", "Copy after:" <old artist>
"Artist:" <new artist> "(Sculptor)", "Copy after:" <old artist>
"Artist:" <new artist>, "Copy after:" <old artist> "(Photographer)"
"Artist:" <new artist>, "Copy after:" <old artist> "(Sculptor)"
Sorry to dig like this, but @azaroth42 we need to grok a similar situation for JPMG.
Your second interpretation is right. We use the suffix to describe the artist of the old (original) work.
Ok. I also notice that
Let's consider the following situation:
npg/constituent/1
made copies of two works by older masters:npg/object/1
of a work by npg/constituent/2
npg/object/2
of a work by npg/constituent/3
from a mold (cast)ConXrefID | ObjectID | ConstituentID | RoleID | Prefix | Suffix |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Artist: | |
2 | 1 | 2 | 102 | Copy after: | (sculptor) |
3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Artist: | |
4 | 2 | 3 | 1 | Cast after: |
(Remember we don't have links to these older works)
It could be modeled like this. I don't quite like that it uses completely different constructs for the two cases. We could also make a P15 link in the second case. @si-npg @azaroth42 @steads feedback is welcome!
<npg/object/1> crm:P108i_was_produced_by <npg/object/1-production>.
<npg/object/1-production> a crm:E12_Production;
crm:P14_carried_out_by <npg/constituent/1>;
crm:P15_was_influenced_by <npg/constituent/2>.
<npg/object/1/contribution/2> a crm:E13_Attribute_Assignment;
crm:P140_assigned_attribute_to <npg/object/1-production>;
crmx:property crm:P15_was_influenced_by;
crm:P141_assigned <npg/constituent/2>;
crm:P2_has_type <thesaurus/contribution/copyAfter>;
crm:P2_has_type <thesaurus/contribution/sculptor>.
<npg/object/2> crm:P108i_was_produced_by <npg/object/2-production>.
<npg/object/2-production> a crm:E12_Production;
crm:P14_carried_out_by <npg/constituent/1>;
crm:P16_used_specific_object <npg/object/2-mold>.
<npg/object/2-mold> a crm:E22_Man-Made_Object;
crm:P2_has_type aat:300024814;
crm:P108i_was_produced_by <npg/object/2-mold-production>.
<npg/object/2-mold-production> a crm:E12_Production;
crm:P14_carried_out_by <npg/constituent/3>.
<thesaurus/contribution/copyAfter> a puml:Inline.
<thesaurus/contribution/sculptor> a puml:Inline.
aat:300024814 a puml:Inline; rdfs:label "mold (shaping equipment)".
Currently the mapping maps only Prefix, and then only 2 values from it: 'Artist:' and 'Sitter:' (see NPGObjConXrefs-report.md). This takes care of 111020+125936=236956 rows, or 90.1% of the total 262833. But it leaves a long tail of 10% of relations unmapped, i.e. just skips them. I made a pivot and shared it here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7BFygWDV2_PYS0xMVR0V3pxVXc&usp=sharing:
Eg "Copy after" is very valuable art research info.
Related to #36 and possibly #37