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AMNH Birds SKIN-635437 Apus pacificus cooki #90

Open paintedstork opened 6 years ago

paintedstork commented 6 years ago

Hi there, I am wondering if this specimen is tagged incorrectly.

In pp 260 of The Birds of South Asia: The Ripley Guide (Rasmussen & Anderton 2012), the following is mentioned under Blyth's Swift

"A. leuconyx is widespread in S. Asia. Two other forms (Salim Ali's Swift A. salimalii, and Pacific Swift A. p. pacificus) have been considered to occur in S. Asia, but further study needed....a few Assam specimens have been identified as this [Salim Ali's]...Nominate A. pacificus has been listed as occurring in NE [North-east India] in winter but this likewise needs substantiation."

Hence A. pacificus leuconyx is the known species from India while nominate and salimalii are possible/hypothetical with no records of A. p. cooki.

Would you mind checking if this is actually cooki or just tagged as such ?

Perhaps this paper will also help in teasing out the ID https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/206244#page/11/mode/1up

If proven, this would be the first verifiable record of cooki for India though it might occur in Andaman & Nicobar islands.

bbirdAMNH commented 6 years ago

Hi Praveen,

I have looked at this specimen in the collection and have included the photos I took for you. Unfortunately, the specimen itself is not in great condition nor was a good preparation and it is difficult to see the distinguishing characters as outlined in the paper you included.

Basically, there are no obvious clues from the placement in the drawers which can usually happen in these situations, to be able to say that the specimen isn't A. p. cooki, and based on the characters I could see, the black running through the white rump feathers, does lean towards the A. p. cooki ID. Plus a photo below shows the 2nd primary being only very slightly longer than the 1st which according to the paper, leans to cooki. The original ID from the old register books being A. p. cooki also helps it's identity crisis. Like I stated, it's also not a great specimen and difficult to see the other characters listed in the paper such as an accurate representation of the throat patch (the neck seems squished in laterally) and the ventral feathers are also difficult to see as the wings were prepared to hide them.

However, with the recent name changes and the 'messy' taxonomy around Cook's and Blyth's Swifts, it is difficult to find more resources to confirm the ID. (Howard and Moore, what our names are based on has put this swift with a white rump in with the Dark-rumped Swift, Apus acuticaudata cooki ).

I have included photos of the data tags for your reference as well. Please let us know what you think and if you can come to any further conclusions from the photos.

img_20180807_150318_1 img_20180807_150342_1 img_20180807_150400_1 img_20180807_150413 img_20180807_150441_1 img_20180807_150453 img_20180807_150508 img_20180807_150516 img_20180807_151050 img_20180814_160606

paintedstork commented 6 years ago

Thank you very much for this great response,

I have requested Paul Leader to have a look at the pictures.

Since you did not sign the mail, it is not clear who took these efforts. In any case, a big thumbs up and hope this gets down as the first cooki for India.

Praveen

On Thu 23 Aug, 2018, 02:05 bbirdAMNH, notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi Praveen,

I have looked at this specimen in the collection and have included the photos I took for you. Unfortunately, the specimen itself is not in great condition nor was a good preparation and it is difficult to see the distinguishing characters as outlined in the paper you included.

Basically, there are no obvious clues from the placement in the drawers which can usually happen in these situations, to be able to say that the specimen isn't A. p. cooki, and based on the characters I could see, the black running through the white rump feathers, does lean towards the A. p. cooki ID. Plus a photo below shows the 2nd primary being only very slightly longer than the 1st which according to the paper, leans to cooki. The original ID from the old register books being A. p. cooki also helps it's identity crisis. Like I stated, it's also not a great specimen and difficult to see the other characters listed in the paper such as an accurate representation of the throat patch (the neck seems squished in laterally) and the ventral feathers are also difficult to see as the wings were prepared to hide them.

However, with the recent name changes and the 'messy' taxonomy around Cook's and Blyth's Swifts, it is difficult to find more resources to confirm the ID. (Howard and Moore, what our names are based on has put this swift with a white rump in with the Dark-rumped Swift, Apus acuticaudata cooki ).

I have included photos of the data tags for your reference as well. Please let us know what you think and if you can come to any further conclusions from the photos.

[image: img_20180807_150318_1] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488601-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-812c-d4fb990b2efa.jpg [image: img_20180807_150342_1] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488602-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-82e1-ee13b4b65489.jpg [image: img_20180807_150400_1] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488603-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-8534-aa1a021b44fc.jpg [image: img_20180807_150413] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488604-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-80a4-7f5ad72b132f.jpg [image: img_20180807_150441_1] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488605-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-928a-05b3a2ce8194.jpg [image: img_20180807_150453] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488606-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-82fe-3481cea3ebbd.jpg [image: img_20180807_150508] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488607-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-91df-34611c5a5c1b.jpg [image: img_20180807_150516] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488608-2b963600-a627-11e8-8166-d99564d0454c.jpg [image: img_20180807_151050] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488609-2b963600-a627-11e8-8dab-db440bef3a7d.jpg [image: img_20180814_160606] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488610-2b963600-a627-11e8-920c-f0c2af0dd4b9.jpg

— You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/amnh-vertnet/amnh-birds/issues/90#issuecomment-415170527, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AMBkNbhvu-YsPUIP37FyhwuRIgntZjjKks5uTcCGgaJpZM4VyOQ5 .

paintedstork commented 4 years ago

Hi there, I heard from Paul recently that he confirms this to be Blyth's Swift.

"The specimen is entirely consistent with Blyth’s Swift most notably with regards to the upperparts showing a brown crown and nape that contrast with the black mantle, and brown toned underparts lacking the blackish upperparts and underparts and broad, well defined pure white fringes on the underparts of Cook’s Swift."

I was wondering if you would like to re-tag this specimen. To ensure you obtain a more formal documentation, we intend to publish the find in Indian BIRDS. I still do not know who took this great effort to provide us with the photos and measurements, but I would like to invite you to be a co-author for this joint paper.

bbirdAMNH commented 4 years ago

Hi Praveen,

Thank you so much for the update. We will be updating the database for that record with your notes.

It was me, Bentley Bird, who responded to the request. Feel free to email me directly at bbird@amnh.org and we can discuss a co-authorship, which is very generous of you!

Cheers, Bentley

Bentley Bird Museum Specialist, Department of Ornithology American Museum of Natural History E\mail: bbird@amnh.org (She/Her/Hers)


From: Praveen J notifications@github.com Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 9:00 AM To: amnh-vertnet/amnh-birds amnh-birds@noreply.github.com Cc: Bentley Bird bbird@amnh.org; Comment comment@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [amnh-vertnet/amnh-birds] AMNH Birds SKIN-635437 Apus pacificus cooki (#90)

Thank you very much for this great response,

I have requested Paul Leader to have a look at the pictures.

Since you did not sign the mail, it is not clear who took these efforts. In any case, a big thumbs up and hope this gets down as the first cooki for India.

Praveen

On Thu 23 Aug, 2018, 02:05 bbirdAMNH, notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi Praveen,

I have looked at this specimen in the collection and have included the photos I took for you. Unfortunately, the specimen itself is not in great condition nor was a good preparation and it is difficult to see the distinguishing characters as outlined in the paper you included.

Basically, there are no obvious clues from the placement in the drawers which can usually happen in these situations, to be able to say that the specimen isn't A. p. cooki, and based on the characters I could see, the black running through the white rump feathers, does lean towards the A. p. cooki ID. Plus a photo below shows the 2nd primary being only very slightly longer than the 1st which according to the paper, leans to cooki. The original ID from the old register books being A. p. cooki also helps it's identity crisis. Like I stated, it's also not a great specimen and difficult to see the other characters listed in the paper such as an accurate representation of the throat patch (the neck seems squished in laterally) and the ventral feathers are also difficult to see as the wings were prepared to hide them.

However, with the recent name changes and the 'messy' taxonomy around Cook's and Blyth's Swifts, it is difficult to find more resources to confirm the ID. (Howard and Moore, what our names are based on has put this swift with a white rump in with the Dark-rumped Swift, Apus acuticaudata cooki ).

I have included photos of the data tags for your reference as well. Please let us know what you think and if you can come to any further conclusions from the photos.

[image: img_20180807_150318_1] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488601-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-812c-d4fb990b2efa.jpg [image: img_20180807_150342_1] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488602-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-82e1-ee13b4b65489.jpg [image: img_20180807_150400_1] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488603-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-8534-aa1a021b44fc.jpg [image: img_20180807_150413] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488604-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-80a4-7f5ad72b132f.jpg [image: img_20180807_150441_1] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488605-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-928a-05b3a2ce8194.jpg [image: img_20180807_150453] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488606-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-82fe-3481cea3ebbd.jpg [image: img_20180807_150508] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488607-2afd9f80-a627-11e8-91df-34611c5a5c1b.jpg [image: img_20180807_150516] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488608-2b963600-a627-11e8-8166-d99564d0454c.jpg [image: img_20180807_151050] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488609-2b963600-a627-11e8-8dab-db440bef3a7d.jpg [image: img_20180814_160606] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/42472209/44488610-2b963600-a627-11e8-920c-f0c2af0dd4b9.jpg

― You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/amnh-vertnet/amnh-birds/issues/90#issuecomment-415170527, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AMBkNbhvu-YsPUIP37FyhwuRIgntZjjKks5uTcCGgaJpZM4VyOQ5 .

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