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animate1978 / MB-Lab

MB-Lab is a character creation tool for Blender 4.0 and above, based off ManuelBastioniLAB
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Doubts about the license of the characters. #292

Closed Malkverbena closed 3 years ago

Malkverbena commented 3 years ago

I read the licenses but one thing was not clear. I intend to use characters created using MB-lab to create other characters, mixing them as shapes keys. I intend to use this system on a game engine. All the needed code will be written on the engine. Is this permitted by the current license? Can I use the characters created by mixing the models created from mb-lab that way in a commercial way?

animate1978 commented 3 years ago

Unfortunately due to the way the original creator (Manuel Bastioni) had licensed the data (blend models, JSON morph library and textures) it is not possible to use in commercial works. That being said there is work being done to add, if not replace, the whole data library such as the models, JSON libs and textures but it won't be available until the code is stable AND the content is available which at this time is in a prototype state.

The JSON library is part of the AGPL3 and even if you are mixing your characters in a way that makes them different than the original model in the blend file, you are still using a AGPL3 covered library because we have yet to make new JSON libraries that are licensed in a more permissive way. There is work being done to do so but at this time again it's in a prototype stage, not ready for production use.

Hopefully this helps

Malkverbena commented 3 years ago

This information was very useful, thanks. I have one more question. If I make it available for free and under the same license, the entire blend models code, JSON morph library and code of this "character creator". As mentioned before, I plan to use this project in a game. I have no intention of making all the game code available, but only what is related to the "Character Creator" and everything that is derived from MB-Lab. Does this enable me to use the product commercially?

Thanks in advance

animate1978 commented 3 years ago

I think so, as long as you provide the source files (Blend file, texture maps etc...)

Also you would need to attribute Manuel Bastioni as the original creator.

This subject has been in debate for some time, which is why we are working towards new models that have more permissive license that can be used commercially without having to provide the source files.

Malkverbena commented 3 years ago

I browse on issues today and noticed that. I would love to do something about but I don't think I have useful skills to help. Anyway, I'm going to talk to colleagues and spread it. I think that drawing attention to this project may attract some help. Thanks for your help once again.

kondelik commented 3 years ago

@Malkverbena

I think so, as long as you provide the source files (Blend file, texture maps etc...)

IANAL but i dont think this is how (A)GPL work...

Even if you release your CharacterCreator as open source, you must do it under (A)GPL licence (yeah, GPL is like virus) and still cant link any data from it in your game without infecting it with forced (A)GPL.

If I make it available for free and under the same license, the entire blend models code, JSON morph library and code of this "character creator".

So now your CharacterCreator is "infected" with (A)GPL and you still cant use data from it in your core game without making it (A)GPL.

You just moved your problem one step away, not solved it - what are you really asking about something like Classpath exception or Linking exception in general or even LGPL and - sorry - GPL is designed to NOT allow this - see GPL Linking and derived works).

So, your core game have to be without any (!) character from MB-Lab becouse you cant "link" (= bundle with) them without making your game (A)GPL. Your CharacterCreator is open sourced. Maybe you can do something like "before you play, you have to run this app, do export and do import here" or something like that (and this is unacceptable for 90% of players + not sure if you really break GPL infection. Audacity does something like this with MP3 codec, but that was becouse some sort of sw patents, so, maybe you can do this, idk)

Still, your game is one email to license-violation at gnu.org away from cease & desist or even legal action & court (even if just for defending yourself). And everyone can write that mail, not only Manuel or animate1978 (your competition, your angry player...) Not cool. Lawyers are expensive.

My conclusion is that you cannot export anything containing even trace amount of MBLab mesh/json/textures/etc (= derivative work) to use (= link, bundle...) it in non-GPL software. Just go somewhere and buy some nice mesh. I know, i am hobbist game dev and my budget is exactly zero +/- 5€, but (A)GPL is headache and it's not worth your time jumping through fiery circles like this.

Only way i know about is that you can pre-render every character (thats not "derivative work", you are not distributing mesh/json/etc but "projection to pixel") and use only 2d images (Again, I AM NOT A LAWYER! but i think i read this somewhere on Manuel Bastioni pages few years ago)

kondelik commented 3 years ago

@animate1978 @Malkverbena

I did many edits to my previous post, so, TL;DR:

What are you looking for is LGPL, MIT, CC or many others, but not (A)GPL.

If you want to write proprietary game and you do not want to violate the license, stay away from (A)GPL -> stay away from MBLab mesh. Sorry, it hurts me too.

Malkverbena commented 3 years ago

@splite . Thanks a lot. Your information is precious. The MBlab is an amazing tool but under this this license has become totally useless.

Malkverbena commented 3 years ago

@splite I notice you also a Godot user. I was working on an integration between MB-lab and Godot. A pluging to make mblab run on Godot. Anyway, it's waste of time and work.

Atulin commented 3 years ago

Shame about AGPL. Makes the plugin nothing more than a curiosity, ultimately not fit to use in production.

The way I understand it, the only way to get rid of this virus is to rewrite the format models are stored with, and provide base meshes with an open-source license?

kondelik commented 3 years ago

I notice you also a Godot user. I was working on an integration between MB-lab and Godot. A pluging to make mblab run on Godot. Anyway, it's waste of time and work.

Nice to see fellow godoter 😄 Its a shame, really, i feel your pain, but this licence is too restrictive.

Again, IANAL (really guys, if you want to be sure, just hire lawyer) - That plugin must be AGPL licenced if it use MBLab meshes/textures/database. Everything produced with him... You know the drill by now.

Shame about AGPL. Makes the plugin nothing more than a curiosity, ultimately not fit to use in production.

Well, as i sad, i read few years agou at (now defunct) Manuel site he will not enforce licence when you use just renders. I just hope lawyers at GNU.org will believe it :)

The way I understand it, the only way to get rid of this virus is to rewrite the format models are stored with, and provide base meshes with an open-source license?

Meshes/textures are AGPL, DB (jsons) is AGPL, this plugin is GPL (https://mblab.dev/license/)

But if meshes were, let say, LGPL or MIT licence, then you can edit them with GPL licensed sw and still pack them with your proprietary game.

So, i think the answer is yes (?)

Thats how GIMP work - GIMP is GPL, but if you edit that image of your cat you photographed on your phone, the image remains yours under whatever licence you decide it have :) But if you edit someone else image (for absurd example, you just add your watermark on screenshot of Elza) that does not mean you (nor GIMP) are magically the author and the copyright owner of Frozen. (And just replace GIMP with MB-Lab plugin and Elza with Mario Bastioni meshes to see whats going on...)

kondelik commented 3 years ago

For further reading you can see how MakeHuman implement their licence:

http://www.makehumancommunity.org/content/license_explanation.html

MakeHuman is AGPL but it have CC-0 exception for Exported data. AFAIK MB-Lab have nothing like this exception (?) -> model is AGPL -> everything outputed is AGPL.

Malkverbena commented 3 years ago

Due the fact of the licence of the models makes my projects infeasible, I am closing this issue.

RustoMCSpit commented 2 weeks ago

That being said there is work being done to add, if not replace, the whole data library such as the models, JSON libs and textures but it won't be available until the code is stable AND the content is available which at this time is in a prototype state.

is this done? can we use it in closed source projects now? if so please add this to the readme