forms that aren't being analysed

[jonorthwash]

@varie, could you provide some information on each of these forms? They're coming up as common unanalysed forms.

• буолкалах
• буолааччы
• буоланнар
• буоллун
• буолуохтааҕын
• баргыа
• үөскүүр
• сыллардаахха
• суруллубут
• оҥоһуллубут

Most of them look like inflected forms of stems we have in the transducer, but they could also be derived forms. Either way, let's look at each one carefully and think about how to add to the transducer.

[varie]

буолкалах

I think it's not form of буол word. I found Буолкалах өрүc in Wikipedia - it's name of the river.

[varie]

буолааччы

This form is described in Ubryatova's book on p. 331: "Наклоенение обычно совершаемого действия".

барааччыбын барааччыгын барааччы барааччыбыт барааччыгыт барааччылар

барааччым суох барааччыҥ суох барааччыта суох барааччыбыт суох барааччыгыт суох барааччылара суох

and also: барааччыта суохпун барааччыта суоххун барааччыта суох барааччыта суохпут барааччыта суоххут барааччыта суохтар

Мир эрдэ тураааччыбын - (Usually) I wake up early. Биһиги кинилэргэ сылдьааччыбыт суох (or: сылдьааччыта суохпут) - (Usually) we don't visit them.

Also there is nouns like: суруйааччы - writer (someone who usually writes), салайааччы - head, leader (someone who usually leads), etc.

[jonorthwash]

What's the difference between the two negative versions of that?

[varie]

What's the difference between the two negative versions of that?

Ubryatova doesn't say anything about the difference (p. 332), maybe there is no difference except how they are produced?

[varie]

буолуохтааҕын

looks like dative case of word буолуохтаах.

Ubryatova writes that вторичная причастная форма на -ыахтаах can decline.

Examples:

Онно барыахтаахпын мин кыайан өйдөөбөппүн - I can not understand my need to go there. Уу кэлиэхтээҕинэн ордук сэрэхтээх этэ - It was particularly dangerous due to the forthcoming arrival of water. Иван тохтуохтааҕар эбии сэтэрэн саҥарда - Instead of stopping, Ivan spoke even more passionately. Кини оҥоруохтааҕа, үлэлиэхтээҕэ, ситэриэхтээҕэ оо, өссө да үгүс! - Oh, and now a lot of what he has to do, work, complete!

Also she writes that -ыахтаах is formed from -ыах + -лаах (possession affix). Future tense of долженствовательное наклонение is formed using -ыахтаах:

барыахтаахпын барыахтааххын барыахтаах барыахтаахпыт барыахтааххыт барыахтаахтар

Ubryatova's book p. 330

баргыа

I found only 3 occurrences in the Wikipedia corpus. And all 3 are names of persons: Гаврил-Баргыа 2 times and Антон-Баргыа.

[varie]

сыллардаахха

Might it be dative case of сыл + лар + лаах?

It means some range of years like: 80-с сыллардаахха (80s), 1958-59 сыллардаахха (1958-59 years), etc.

[varie]

суруллубут оҥоһуллубут

They are similar forms as суруйбут, оҥорбут but passive.

[jonorthwash]

оҥоһуллубут

[...] оҥорбут but passive.

Do all transitive verbs ending in р change р to һ for the passive? What about for the {I}{A}х form?

[jonorthwash]

барааччыбын [...]

Could you give a complete paradigm for a verb that ends in a consonant (e.g., бар)?

[jonorthwash]

барааччы

Can this also be a verbal adjective and/or a verbal noun? E.g., барааччы харчы or something?

[jonorthwash]

барыахтаахпын [...]

What's the negative of these?

[varie]

оҥоһуллубут

[...] оҥорбут but passive.

Do all transitive verbs ending in р change р to һ for the passive?

Oh, according to sakhatyla.ru оҥоһулун and оҥорулун are both passive of оҥор and there are occurrences of both of them in Wikipedia corpus.

But others seem not to change р to һ: таһаар - таһаарылын сытыар - сытыарылын көтүр - көтүрүлүн ууллар - уулларылын

[varie]

барааччыбын

[...]

Could you give a complete paradigm for a verb that ends in a consonant (e.g., бар)?

It is complete paradigm of verb бар and then I realised that it appears to be also same for verb бараа.

[varie]

барааччы

Can this also be a verbal adjective and/or a verbal noun? E.g., барааччы харчы or something?

I think it cannot.

[varie]

барыахтаахпын [...]

What's the negative of these?

барыа суохтаахпын барыа суохтааххын барыа суохтаах барыа суохтаахпыт барыа суохтааххыт барыа суохтаахтар

[jonorthwash]

Oh, according to sakhatyla.ru оҥоһулун and оҥорулун are both passive of оҥор and there are occurrences of both of them in Wikipedia corpus.

Is there any difference in meaning or usage, or are they used completely interchangeably?

But others seem not to change р to һ:

What about көһүн-/көстөр? Is that passive of көр-? (If so, maybe it's irregular / an exception.)

[jonorthwash]

It is complete paradigm of verb бар and then I realised that it appears to be also same for verb бараа.

Ah, okay, that helps a lot. Could you add the affirmative forms of a verb ending in иэ and/or ыа (e.g., сиэ/диэ, ыа) to habitual.yaml? And double check the forms that are already there?

[varie]

Could you add the affirmative forms of a verb ending in иэ and/or ыа (e.g., сиэ/диэ, ыа) to habitual.yaml?

https://github.com/apertium/apertium-sah/commit/0da9e23aa62fbdf334eb534c9768ea69171b2f9a

And double check the forms that are already there?

Should it be сырыт instead of сылдьы?

[varie]

Oh, according to sakhatyla.ru оҥоһулун and оҥорулун are both passive of оҥор and there are occurrences of both of them in Wikipedia corpus.

Is there any difference in meaning or usage, or are they used completely interchangeably?

I think there is slight difference in meaning which is difficult for me to describe.

But others seem not to change р to һ:

What about көһүн-/көстөр? Is that passive of көр-? (If so, maybe it's irregular / an exception.)

I think that passive of көр is көрүлүн. I am not sure about көһүн-/көстөр.

[jonorthwash]

After discussion about көр-:

• көстөн ыл- < көҺүн- = ‘be seen’
  • passive of көр-
• көрөлүн- = ‘be taken care of’
  • көрүн- = ‘~pay attention’/‘take care of yourself’

Also:

Should it be сырыт instead of сылдьы?

• сырыт should be the lemma

I think there is slight difference in meaning which is difficult for me to describe.

• оҥоһулун- = to be created/built/founded? - passive of оҥоһун-?
• оҥорулун- = to be made? - passive of оҥор-

The н/лIн passive alternation can be covered using twol.

[jonorthwash]

• оҥоһулун- = to be created/built/founded? - passive of оҥоһун-?

Currently passive of оҥоһун- is being generated as оҥостулун-. Is that wrong?

[varie]

Currently passive of оҥоһун- is being generated as оҥостулун-. Is that wrong?

I think that it should be "оҥоһулун".

[jonorthwash]

But other forms have ст, right? E.g. оҥостор?

[varie]

But other forms have ст, right? E.g. оҥостор?

Yes

[jonorthwash]

Hm, that leaves an interesting pattern that I'm not sure what to do with.

What about иһит, уһул, оҕус, тутун, үтүгүн, умун? What are the passive forms of those?

[varie]

What about иһит, уһул, оҕус, тутун, үтүгүн, умун? What are the passive forms of those?

I think: иһит-иһилин, уһул-уһулун, оҕус-охсулун, тутун-тутулун, үтүгүн-үтүгүлүн (?), умун-умнулун.

[jonorthwash]

Making this pattern work has made the following forms not analyse (from Wikipedia corpus):

937 ^туттуллар/*туттуллар$ - тутун<v><tv><pass><aor><p3><sg> 306 ^тэриллибитэ/*тэриллибитэ$ 294 ^тутталлар/*тутталлар$ 200 ^умнуллубат/*умнуллубат$ - умун<v><tv><pass><neg><aor><p3><sg> 159 ^сылдьалларын/*сылдьалларын$ - <aor> (no <pass>) 156 ^туттубат/*туттубат$ - <aor> (no <pass>)

@varie, could you add these forms to passives.yaml (or mention here if they're not passives) and check the forms in there already?

[jonorthwash]

Fix phonology for умнулун/умнуллубат (@jonorthwash).