verb forms: figure out which forms are possible in which roles

[jonorthwash]

Which of these forms can be used in which ways? Complete the chart:

suffix form	example forms	finite?	subst/ger?	advl/gna?	attr/gpr?	with aux / prc?
-{А}р	барар, саныыр	<aor>	yes	no	<gpr_aor>	(with copula)
-{B}{А}т	барбат, санаабат	<neg><aor>	yes	no	<neg><gpr_aor>	(with copula)
-{B}{I}т	барбыт, санаабыт	yes	yes	no	yes	(with copula)
-{I}{A}х	барыах, буолуох	<fut>	<dat>, <acc>, <abl>, <ins>, <comp>, remnant <gen> with <post>	no	<gpr_fut>	(with copula)
-{I}{A}	барыа, буолуо		<nom> only	no	no	(with copula)
-{I}{A}н	барыан, буолуон	—	<nom> only	no	no	no
-{D}{A}х	бардах, бүтэрдэх	yes	<dat>, <abl>, <acc>, remnant <gen>	no	no	no
-{A}{A}чч{I}	барааччы, үүнээччи	yes	yes (except <px><par> ?)	no	no	no
-{A} илик	бара илик, үөрэнэ илик	<unac>	yes	no	<gpr_unac>	no
-{A}н	баран, киирэн		no	yes	no	yes
-{A}	бара, ыы		no	yes	no	yes
-{I}м{I}н{A}	барымына, ылымына	yes	no	yes	no	no
-{B}{A}кк{A}	барбакка, тэһийбэккэ	yes?	no	yes	no	no
-{а}{а}р{I}	бараары, диэри		no	yes	no	no

[jonorthwash]

@varie, could you fill in this chart? We'll help you understand what it all means.

[varie]

Yeah, sure! Could you give some examples, please?

[jonorthwash]

Okay, some initial guidelines:

Verbal nouns (=gerunds) are forms that can do any of the following:

• act as the subject of a sentence,
• take various case suffixes and act in other roles in a sentence that a noun or pronoun might normally occur,
• take possessive suffixes, though not necessarily in the meaning of possession (e.g., maybe to agree with the subject of the verb).

Try filling in that column first, and note any limitations (like I did for -{I}{A}n). I'll provide more guidelines later, maybe on IRC.

[jonorthwash]

Verbal adjectives (attr/gpr = глагольное прилагательное) are verb forms that can modify nouns in much the same way as adjectives. For example, бара илик киһи, барар күнэ, etc. Sometimes they can then be substantivised too, but don't worry about that.

[jonorthwash]

Verbal adverbs (advl/gna = глагольное наречие) and prc (≈participle/причастие) are very similar, so this can be difficult. They both occur with other verbs, but the difference is that verbal adverbs [usually] form two predicates ("He ate as he was fishing") whereas prc occurs only with auxiliaries to create a single predicate ("He can fish", or "He finished fishing"). Often in Turkic languages, verbal nouns plus various case markers have similar uses and meanings to verbal adverb form, but they should be counted as verbal noun + case if they are productive.

[jonorthwash]

Here are some Sakha examples of prc that I found in lexc comments: сиэн кэбис бара сыста

[varie]

Видообразующие служебные глаголы combine with -ан and -а (ыы) forms and become grammatical indicator of an aspect of a verb. Ubryatova describes following groups of видообразующие служебные глаголы:

1. эр;
2. оҕус, кэбис, хаал;
3. ис, тур, түс;
4. бар, сырыт.

Модальные служебные глаголы have modal and modal-temporal meaning. Ubryatova desribes following groups:

1. Main group is functional modal verbs: баҕар, сатан, табылын, саараа, куттан, кыбыһын, салын, толун, санаа, саат, аһын, туттун, дьулай, сыыс, уолдьас and others;
2. буол, сыс, этэ, көр, сатаа and others.

[jonorthwash]

Модальные служебные глаголы

What verb forms do these combine with?

And could you give some prc examples of verb forms like барар and барыах?

Also, you mentioned one other type of modal the other day?

[jonorthwash]

There are some Kazakh examples of gna on the Apertium wiki here: http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Turkic_lexicon#Verbal_adverbs

Does this help clarify?

[varie]

Модальные служебные глаголы

What verb forms do these combine with?

1. First group combine with причастие будущего времени в форме винительного и дательного падежей (-ыаҕын или -ыахха + modal verb). Examples: Ааҕаччы болҕомтотун биир түбэлтэҕэ тохтотуохпун баҕарабын. - I would like to draw the reader's attention to one occasion. Вася, мин эмиэ партияҕа киириэхпин саныыбын. - Vasya, I also think about joining the party
2. Second group combine with:

• present -ар + буол Арыт киэһэлэргэ бэрэбинэлэр үрүлэригэр тахсан хамсаабакка бүк түһэн олорор буолар - In other evenings sometimes he sits hunched over on logs. Аҕыйах хонон баран Михей куоракка үөрэнэ киирэр буолар - A few days later, Micah decides to go to town to study.

• past -быт + буол Семену көрөөт, соһуйбута буолллулар - When they saw Semyon, they pretended to be surprised.

• future -ыах + буол «Не верь, не бойся, не проси!» диэн ырыанан барыах буолбута - They announced that they will go with song «Не верь, не бойся, не проси!»

• -а, -ыы + сыс Ол ыккардыгар хаста да ууга бара сыстылар - Meanwhile, they nearly drowned several times.

• -уох + этэ Оччоҕо бэйэбит туспа аҕабыыттаах буолуох этибит - Then we ourselves separately would have our priest.

• -ан + көр Арай бу эмээхсинтэн көрдөөн көрүөҥ буолуо - Hardly you would try to ask this old lady.

• -а, -ыы + сатаа Оҥоро сатаата да, туох да тахсыбата - He tried to do it, but he did not succeed.

All examples are from Ubryatova book except 'future -ыах + буол'. 'future -ыах + буол' example is from Wikipedia corpus.

[jonorthwash]

I don't understand what the first and second groups are... Those are all with модальные служебные глаголы?

Also, what about my other questions?

[jonorthwash]

First group combine with причастие будущего времени в форме винительного и дательного падежей (-ыаҕын или -ыахха + modal verb).

The two examples of this both appear to be -ыахпын. Could you explain how this corresponds to the the description?

[varie]

I don't understand what the first and second groups are... Those are all with модальные служебные глаголы?

Yes, Ubryatova divided them into two groups: functional modal verbs and for second group she didn't give any specific name.

And could you give some prc examples of verb forms like барар and барыах?

Are these fine? Арыт киэһэлэргэ бэрэбинэлэр үрүлэригэр тахсан хамсаабакка бүк түһэн олорор буолар - In other evenings sometimes he sits hunched over on logs. Аҕыйах хонон баран Михей куоракка үөрэнэ киирэр буолар - A few days later, Micah decides to go to town to study. «Не верь, не бойся, не проси!» диэн ырыанан барыах буолбута - They announced that they will go with song «Не верь, не бойся, не проси!»

Also, you mentioned one other type of modal the other day?

I don't remember :(.

There are some Kazakh examples of gna on the Apertium wiki here: http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Turkic_lexicon#Verbal_adverbs Does this help clarify?

Yes, thanks! I figured out that verbal adverb is деепричастие and filled the chart according to list of деепричастие from Ubryatova book.

First group combine with причастие будущего времени в форме винительного и дательного падежей (-ыаҕын или -ыахха + modal verb).

The two examples of this both appear to be -ыахпын. Could you explain how this corresponds to the the description?

Hmm, might it be 1 person possessive singular accusative case of -ыах form?

1p: барыахпын баҕарабын 2p: барыаххын баҕараҕын 3p: барыаҕын баҕарар

And then there are also several other examples with functional modal verbs (first group): Суох, Федор Васильевич, сэргэҕэлээтэххинэ сатанар - No, Fyodor Vasilyevich, you need to be interested. Тогойкин уокка чугаһыан дьулуйда - Togoikin did not dare to approach the fire. Кэбис, бу дойдуттан дьалты буола оҕустахха сатаныыһы - No, from this place (we) need to get away soon. - ah, is it -ыахха here? Онон илин өттүбүтүгэр Япония баарын умнуохпутун сатаммат - Therefore, we must not forget that on our eastern side there is Japan. Таптыыр киһитин кытта иирсиэн, айдаарсыан кэрэйдэ - He refrained from quarreling, arguing with a loved one. Эйиэхэ биэриэхпин саарбахтыыбын ээ - I doubt to give it to you.

So, they seem to combine with other forms also. Those (-ыаҕын или -ыахха + modal verb) were some particular examples for accusative and dative cases of -ыах form (p. 406 of the book).

[jonorthwash]

I figured out that verbal adverb is деепричастие and filled the chart according to list of деепричастие from Ubryatova book.

Verbal adverbs and prc are both called деепричастие in Russian. It's important to be able to keep them separate

Hmm, might it be 1 person possessive singular accusative case of -ыах form?

1p: барыахпын баҕарабын 2p: барыаххын баҕараҕын 3p: барыаҕын баҕарар

These are accusative?? Aren't these just finite forms? That is, can't they be the main verb at the end of a sentence / the only verb in a sentence? .

[varie]

Verbal adverbs and prc are both called деепричастие in Russian. It's important to be able to keep them separate

Aa! I will recheck advl/gna column.

These are accusative?? Aren't these just finite forms? That is, can't they be the main verb at the end of a sentence / the only verb in a sentence?

Hmm.. Ubryatova says that причастие на -ыах gets possessive affixes and makes indicative future tense: барыаҕым барыаҕыҥ барыаҕа барыахпыт барыаххыт барыахтара

So then accusative case of those forms would be: барыахпын барыаххын барыаҕын барыахпытын барыаххытын барыахтарын

I think they are not finite forms. I found only these three occurrences in Wikipedia corpus: „Хаһан кэлэллэрий? Туох эрэ буолан эрэбин, балыыһаҕа барыахпын наада“, — диир. Ол гынан баран правительство онно харчы барыаҕын баҕарбатаҕа уонна Соҕуруу Африка улахан өттүн баай өттүн маҥан дьоҥҥо хаалларыан баҕарара. Бу дойдуга гражданскай сэрии олус уһун кэмҥэ уонна ыардык барыаҕын Аан дойду демократияны тутуһар дьонноро элбэх буоланнар көмөлөөн, мөрөйдөөн тохтоппутара.

[jonorthwash]

Aha, this is making more sense to me now. In this case, -IAх is a verbal noun suffix.

I also note that in the second group, - IAх, -Aр, and -BIт only occur with буол. This is good evidence that they are acting as verbal nouns (in nominative) in those contexts.

Evidence that would suggest these are verbal nouns would include uses with буол where the subject of the verb and буол is different. Can the verb in one of these forms be e.g. first person, while буол is e.g. 3rd person?

Evidence that would suggest these are prc would include uses of these forms with other auxiliary verbs. Can you find examples of that?

[jonorthwash]

From IRC:

"Мин куоракка киирэрим буолар." - I'll decide to go to the city. "Мин куоракка киирэр буолабын." - Me going to the city happens.

Also, they seem to only occur with the copula-like verbs буол and этэ, so are probably best treated as gerund, not prc. @varie has now updated to the table to reflect that.

[jonorthwash]

Forms like "буоллаҕына" we had as <gna_cond2>, but it appears they're better analysed as just <ger_cond><px3sg><par>.

[jonorthwash]

@varie, could you give some examples of -ыа (барыа, буолуо, саныа)? I think it's probably <gna_fut> or so (as it's currently in the transducer), but the table says it's <ger>...?

[jonorthwash]

Тогойкин уокка чугаһыан дьулуйда - Togoikin did not dare to approach the fire. Таптыыр киһитин кытта иирсиэн, айдаарсыан кэрэйдэ - He refrained from quarreling, arguing with a loved one.

Based on these examples, I think -{I}{A}н makes <prc>, not <ger>. @varie, what do you think? Do дьулуйда or кэрэйдэ occur with nouns too? What about with other verb forms?

[varie]

@jonorthwash, I found these examples from the newspapers corpus (translations might be not very accurate, but I tried my best :): Боростуой киһи сылдьар кыахтаах эрэ буоллаҕына билиэттэрэ атыыга барыа буоллаҕа эбээт. If common people can go there, only then their tickets will be sold. Бука, Алампа да элбэх кумааҕыта уматылыннаҕа буолуо ээ. It's probable that even Alampa's many papers were burnt. Буруйдаммыттар хом саныа суохтаахтар. Accused ones should not feel sad.

[varie]

@jonorthwash yeah, I think that -{I}{A}н is not <ger>. I think that чугаһыан or иирсиэн cannot be a subject of a sentence. Do дьулуйда or кэрэйдэ occur with nouns too? - yes, for example: "харчытын кэрэйдэ" - he didn't want to spend his money. What about with other verb forms? - yes, for example: "ыраах барыахпын кэрэйдим" - I didn't dare to go far

[jonorthwash]

Do дьулуйда or кэрэйдэ occur with nouns too?

• yes, for example: "харчытын кэрэйдэ" - he didn't want to spend his money.

What about with other verb forms?

• yes, for example: "ыраах барыахпын кэрэйдим" - I didn't dare to go far

These are both evidence, in my mind, of -{I}{A}н being a <ger>. Note that a form doesn't have to be able to be the subject of a sentence to be a gerund.

I found these examples from the newspapers corpus

Those seem to be examples of -{I}{A}, not -{I}{A}н?

[jonorthwash]

@varie, could you give a couple examples of each of the last three types in the table ({I}м{I}н{A}, {B}{A}кк{A}, {a}{a}р{I}), both non-finite, and if present, finite forms?

[varie]

There are examples from Ubryatova's book:

• {I}м{I}н{A} Биллиҥ? - Билиминэ. - Did you recognize? - Of course I recognized. Мааҕыан, Бойуот барыах диэбитигэр, баран хаалымынабын. - Just recently, when Boyot invited me, I should have gone.

• {B}{A}кк{A} "Кыайар баара сыттыкпын аҕалбаккабын." I didn’t take the pillow with me in vain, though I could have taken it. "Эдьигээҥҥэ эмиэ дьиэ-уот тиийбэккэ, элбэх ыал кыараҕастык олорор." As there is not enough housing in Zhigansk, many people live in cramped conditions.

• {a}{a}р{I} "Арҕаа Европаны эргийэ айаннаары кэллибит." We came to travel around Western Europe. "Ыһыахха сылдьаарыбын дойдулаатым." I went to my native area to visit Ysyakh (Midsummer celebration).

[jonorthwash]

@varie, very helpful, thanks! Can you find some non-finite forms of {I}м{I}н{A}?

[jonorthwash]

There appears to be some possibility that {a}{a}р{I} could be prc in addition to gna, but we'd have to say бэлэмнэн is an auxiliary. This is something to consider more deeply in the future.

[jonorthwash]

The following forms are no longer being analysed:

• буолуохтарын, көрдөрүмүөхтэрин, кэлиэхтэрин
  • Are these finite future forms (e.g., буол<v><iv><fut><p3><pl>) or non-finite forms (e.g., буол<v><iv><ger_fut><px3pl><acc>) or what?
  • They appear to be <ger_fut> forms, which are working again.
• диэххэ, туттуохха, булуохха, көрүөххэ, бэлиэтиэххэ, өйдүөххэ, туһаныахха, оҥоруохха, ааттыахха, быһаарыахха, билиэххэ, ыйыахха, этиэххэ, ылыахха
  • Are these <ger_fut><dat>?
  • Seems so; working again.
• буолуоҕуттан
  • Is this <ger_fut><px3sg><abl>?
  • Seems so; working again.
• өрүтүн, устубут, өрүтү, өрүтүнэн
  • I believe these are both forms of postposition-like nouns, right?
• истэллэр
  • ?

[jonorthwash]

Also, @varie, which forms are right here? I.e., is it барбатах or барбабыт, or are both right (with different meanings or not?)?

[5/6][FAIL] бар<v><iv><neg><gpr_past> => Missing results: барбатах
[5/6][FAIL] бар<v><iv><neg><gpr_past> => Unexpected results: барбабыт
[6/6][FAIL] санаа<v><tv><neg><gpr_past> => Missing results: санаабатах
[6/6][FAIL] санаа<v><tv><neg><gpr_past> => Unexpected results: санаабабыт

[varie]

• өрүтүн, устубут, өрүтү, өрүтүнэн I think these are just form of өрүт noun. I am not sure if they are used as postpositions. устубут is a form of past singular 3p уһул and үһун verbs.

• истэллэр form of present plural 3p иһит verb

• right:

  [5/6][FAIL] бар<v><iv><neg><gpr_past> => Missing results: барбатах
  [6/6][FAIL] санаа<v><tv><neg><gpr_past> => Missing results: санаабатах

• not right:

  [5/6][FAIL] бар<v><iv><neg><gpr_past> => Unexpected results: барбабыт
  [6/6][FAIL] санаа<v><tv><neg><gpr_past> => Unexpected results: санаабабыт

[jonorthwash]

Related: #25.

[jonorthwash]

I will finish going through the table and making sure it's all in the lexc file correctly.