Please formalize the process of ToS changes, notifications, etc...

[fields]

"we reserve the right to change these terms at any time" is fairly user-hostile. I would prefer to see a better process outlined for that - notification period, comments, etc...

[JoshBlake]

+1. Would also suggest an option for users to opt-out during the notification period of a ToS change that they don't like. Opting out would be equivalent to cancelling service, but in this case you should refund on a pro-rated basis a subscription.

Example: 6 months into Bob's subscription, ADN proposes a ToS change that Bob doesn't like and gives a 1 month comment period on the draft plus an additional 1 month notice on the final version before it takes effect. (This results in a minimum of two months total between initial ADN communication of ToS change and when it goes into effect.)

Bob can accept the new ToS and continue on, or can reject/opt-out of the new ToS and be refunded the number of months he has remaining in his subscription. Even though the refund is a bit painful for ADN, it is user-friendly and serves as an incentive to not have many ToS changes and to propose ToS that users would accept.

As long as the notification process is clear - emails and blog posts, it would be acceptable for no action on a user's part to be implicit acceptance of the new ToS. Rejecting and refunding should be a simple web form with perhaps a two step confirmation via email.

[jdscolam]

I agree with @JoshBlake on this as well. +1

[fields]

What's the rationale for allowing retroactive ToS changes within the scope of a subscription period to begin with? If the ToS change while you have an active subscription, does it not make more sense to allow you to grandfather under the old terms until your subscription is up, at which point you can then decide to renew under the new terms or not?

[JoshBlake]

@fields I don't think anyone is talking about retroactive changes. Maybe you meant a different word?

For a service contract with a company that provides highly individualized service to e.g. landscape your yard or be your realtor or provide software development services, updating the ToS/contract terms at contract renewal makes sense. For large scale service that depend upon economies of scale and providing consistent service to many customers, like app.net, your cable company, your trash service, it is near impossible to manage multiple co-existing terms-of-service.

In our case, suppose they change the ToS about data retention. If they did not apply it to everyone at once then they would need to retain each user's data for different periods of time depending upon when their contract last renewed. It would be a nightmare. Similarly, suppose they change the wording on how posts can be reused. It could create an impossible asymmetrical relationship where I could do X with your posts but you could not do X with my posts because only one of us renewed our subscription after the last ToS change.

Grandfather clauses typically are a special case, not the general case, and all of the examples I can think of relate to quotas promised to a user for a certain subscription level. For example, I signed up for Verizon Wireless a while ago when they had unlimited mobile data plans. Now they have changed their ToS/SLA (which still applies to me immediately) and eliminated unlimited data plans but allow me to keep my unlimited data until I renew or change plans.

ADN could still use grandfather clauses case-by-case if they change what subscription plans are offered

[edent]

(Let me know if this should be a separate issue)

Currently, the terms say. "Whenever we make changes to these Terms, they are effective when the revised Terms are posted. If you continue to use the Service after the revised Terms have been posted, then you have accepted the changes to these Terms."

That's unacceptable.

If you make a change at 19:30 saying "and we'll take your firstborn" and I post (or autopost) at 1931, are you saying that I've taken the time to read the changes, digest them, and make an informed choice?

I would say something like

"Whenever we make changes to these Terms, we will give you 30 days notice before they come into effect. If you continue to use the Service after the revised Terms have come into effect, then you have accepted the changes to these Terms."

[katcaverly]

Some excellent points being made here. Changes to ToS that are in effect immediately are pretty user unfriendly, and require me to check the ToS every time I login. And what does happen if I don't accept the new terms? This should be very clearly stated.

[mattflaschen]

This has been improved for some documents (e.g. legal and TOS) to a 5-day delay, but it says, "effective immediately" for the incentive program.

[hugoroy]

Hi, the current terms don't have a 5-day delay, or rather it's not a proper delay as it is not tied to any notification (the conditions are alternative, it's either a 5-day delay without notification, or a notification with no delay, or a proper re-acceptance mechanism). The fulfilment of one of the 3 condition is enough to make the changes effective, so IMO the rights of the user to a proper acceptance of changes is not guaranteed at all.

I have opened an thread for tos-dr.info at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tosdr/zqgg8oLZ_no/5hgyEqDCstwJ

It would be really welcome if the delay would be extended to something more important than 5 days (Soundcloud gives 6 weeks ;-) and if notification of changes was mandatory in a proper form (for instance saying all changes are at least notified on the website, not only on the terms page; and for material changes, an email)

Thank you for allowing feedback on your terms

Best,

[berg]

Hi @hugoroy -- we're big fans of tos-dr.info here. Getting the terms right is one of the core goals of our service.

That said, I'm not personally a member of the tosdr mailing list, but I've read the thread because you linked it. I'll bring this up in our next ToS review call. As a note, our developer terms have been revised more recently, and have a 6 week notice clause (modeled on the ToS from the good folks at Soundcloud, in fact!)

[katcaverly]

Your words give me so much hope @berg; getting the terms right is a great start to making a difference.

I agree with @hugoroy on some kind of notification when the ToS changes; an email would be user-friendly.