Could the `Hardcore Go` program be renamed?

[rachelmyers]

Hardcore is a word associated with porn; although I'm sure it attracts some people, it alienates others. A new name might convey the rigor and thoroughness of the program, and also avoid images of violence and misogyny.

If the organizers and community are happy with the name, I'll close this issue. But I know people in the community who would like to create a more inclusive culture, and this could be a good step in that direction.

[ardan-bkennedy]

I am not sure how to respond to this issue. We have used the name for almost a year now and not once has someone felt this way. There are workout programs, music and other things in popular culture that are considered hardcore (very intense or extreme). I believe that is the meaning people take from the name. People get excited about the class because they know it is not going to be just a basic workshop.

With all that being said, I don't want to offend people or make them feel uncomfortable. I might ask the community to chime in so I can learn more.

[rachelmyers]

@ardan-bkennedy, Thanks for that response. I don't want this to feel like a gotcha moment, but I do want to start a conversation about it. If the community is okay with it, then I'm happy to close this out. :panda_face:

[ardan-bkennedy]

I sent out this tweet to the community to learn more. https://twitter.com/goinggodotnet/status/675424773883748352

[tylerstillwater]

I agree with @ardan-bkennedy on this one. "Hard-core" is a term that is associated with, and used for, many different things. Only one of those uses has to do with pornography. I think the name is fine as it is. I'm excited to take the class so I can call myself a Hardcore Gopher!

[dlsniper]

Wikipedia and Google seem to leave the porn part at the end. If you want to really rename it to something else I guess Diehard would sound at least as powerful (my original thought when I've seen the title of the class was to the Hardcore Rock music genre) (see synonyms in the screenshot below). .

On a different note, I would hope that professionals in our industry (and especially Gophers) are mature enough and have better things to think of than just porn when we see words that are often used in that domain as well. When I've seen this, it remind me of a different issue I've read in the Go mailing list. Afterall, this one, http://www.womenwhogo.org/, seems like an even worst name if one wants to put that spin on it.

Looking forward to see what's the final decision on this.

[searls]

In an environment that's often openly hostile to non-men, I do my best to counteract that by being extra sensitive to requests like this one, even at the risk that no real negative impact was experienced. The worst case is some egos are bruised and no one is significantly benefited, which isn't so bad in the grand scheme of things.

Polling doesn't seem like the best response, because the communities already have the survivor's bias built into them—anyone who might have been impacted by the name is probably already gone.

I'm really sorry for leaving this comment without dropping in some alternative names, though. I'm not close enough to the Go community to have a bunch of "G" alliterations locked and loaded like I do with "J" and "R"

[jhersh]

The implied machismo/competitiveness/overzealousness is the first thing that comes to my mind; I find it off-putting. I think there's many more inclusive ways to convey a similar concept: "Go Fast", "GoCore", "Go:top:"...

[nz]

"Hard-Mode Go"?

[mattsiegel]

I could dig a title that had to do with tunneling :) Dig Deeper or something like that. (Not a fan of the machismo either.)

[ardan-bkennedy]

@rachelmyers I will be changing the name and have that ready for sometime in January. I just need to think of something that conveys the same notion of very intense or extreme.

[carlisia]

Having a busy day and kinda late to the party.

First, thank you @rachelmyers for watching out for us. An issue like this is not easy for some people to bring up, much less press on. I know it wouldn't be for me. I'm in awe of your resolution and grateful for your experience.

For the record, in any conversation I completely 100% discount not once has someone felt this way type of comments. So @ardan-bkennedy, not picking on you. But I am super weary of it because it's a comment that doesn't account for the voices that turned away from commenting. Granted, there might've been none, but we don't know and it is a good starting point to take that into account.

Now, on to the issue. I had never associated the course name with porn. I was ready to accept that if people were turned off because it implied tough, I'd be fine with it. It is not an easy class, I've taken it. However, if people associate the name hardcore with porn, then it doesn't even matter what I think: as far as GoBridge goes, it is not a name we should use, especially since it affects an organization that is greater than us. And I can so easily now make that association that I'd find it hard to believe there aren't a whole lot of people who do. And one would be more than enough.

[stonean]

I've taken the class as well and never associated the name with porn or anything other the first definition: "the most active, committed, or doctrinaire members of a group or movement".

However, I agree with @carlisia , "it doesn't even matter what I think". So I'll offer up an alternative: "Intense Go".

Intense is the first word that came to mind while I was taking the class and what I often use to describe it to others. I was wiped out after the first day and needed rest to mentally prepare to keep up on the next. :smile:

Because of this, I think intense (or a similar word as @ardan-bkennedy mentioned above) could be a better descriptor than hardcore.

[ardan-bkennedy]

@stonean I love that name Intense Go or Go Extreme

[stonean]

@ardan-bkennedy I like Intense a bit more because I associate "intense" with mental exertion where "extreme" leans more towards physical...but that could just be me. I've been known to have unique (wrong) interpretations.

[carlisia]

I love Go Extreme, it implies that you are going towards the encounter of some extreme Go knowledge, and there's a nice play on words there.

[stonean]

Twitter poll time? Maybe starting with these two will spark a third and better option if one doesn't clearly win...

[ardan-bkennedy]

Andrew Stone: Intense Go, Acute Go Ed Gonzo: Go Extreme Adam Stacoviak: Epic Go, Maximum Go Rene Fragoso: Diehard Go, Rigorous Go disniper: Ultimate Go nicholasa: Fanatical Go Tyler Bunnell: Limitless Go, Unyielding Go

[jlsuttles]

To offer another view point I have thought about the name "Hardcore Go" not being inclusive, but for different reasons than @rachelmyers. Although now that Rachel mentioned it, she has a great point and I doubt I will unsee it. For me hardcore is not inclusive because it refers to "the most active, committed, or doctrinaire members of a group or movement" as @dlsniper pointed out. So what about the people who are not the most active, commited, or doctrinaire, but just want to learn more? Is this training not for them? As an example, at the first Go conference I went to, after I had been programming professionally for 5 years, I was talking to someone who expressed that they loved the women in the Go community because they were such hardcore developers, not like those women who wear high heels and write Ruby. As a woman who has written mostly Ruby professionally and doesn't consider herself a hardcore programmer, I felt double excluded.

[dlsniper]

Ultimate Go(pher) ?

[iamnande]

What about "Fanatical Go" meet ups?

[stonean]

I'll throw one more out there... thinking back through the class and the level of detail @ardan-bkennedy went into immediately, "Acute Go" came to mind.

[ardan-bkennedy]

@jlsuttles Thanks for the feedback. Would a name like Ultimate Go be more appealing to you. Does it say this is more than just a basic workshop and not say any of the things you mentioned?

[iamnande]

I retract and agree with @dlsniper. Ultimate Go.

[jlsuttles]

@ardan-bkennedy I like Ultimate Go.

[acazau]

The phrase which kept coming up during the training was "idiomatic go". This is probably the most important lesson i received from it. I learned the standards of go ...... "ANSI go"

Doesn't sound super cool but the audience should get it.

[postman0]

Wow, the thought police strikes again. I wonder if SJWs are actually the only people in whose minds "hardcore" is so rigidly tied to "porn".

[lozandier]

Since the aim of the series is to have a sophisticated understanding of Go more than a basic understanding of the language—and fans of the series have concerns of the name to this extent—perhaps something along the lines of Advanced Go, Exceptional Go, Boundless Go, Transcendental Go, Mindblowing Go, In-depth Go, or Well-Grounded Go can be a middle-ground solution?

Alternatively perhaps the series name can be about what it does to the Go programmer ("Gopher"); i.e. Becoming a Well-grounded Gopher & etc.

[wa759091]

Go is a word associated with unrestrained movement; although I'm sure it attracts some people, it alienates paraplegics and other physically-disabled programmers. A new name might convey ease and convenience of the language, and also avoid images of ableism and physical discrimination.

[ardan-bkennedy]

After much thought we decided the keep the Hardcore branding for the classes we teach at ArdanLabs. When we offer free classes using this material through GoBridge we will refrain from using the name.

Thank you to everyone who provided feedback and thank you to Rachel for bringing up the issue.

[dlsniper]

@ardan-bkennedy I'd suggest locking the issue now that a decision was made in order to further avoid derailing of discussion and turning this into yet another ugly thread on Github. https://github.com/blog/1847-locking-conversations