Extract captions

[arudnitsky]

URL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDVqle8OzY&list=PLpXNW3lwgte-k6p5iw3pJuvLk9UPDD1yV&index=1

[github-actions[bot]]

[youtube:tab] Downloading playlist PLpXNW3lwgte-k6p5iw3pJuvLk9UPDD1yV; add --no-playlist to just download video oLDVqle8OzY
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[github-actions[bot]]

[music]
Friends, hello And we are a real
audio living room gathered with you today
here with quite real and not audio
glasses, glasses, bottles and everything
else and we are on a real carpet and we are
live in Life tip currently without a name
Thank you for coming today we are
unlimited with Bohdana  rejoice Because this
day I actually have a lot of special
moments We started preparing this podcast in the
middle of March and from the middle of March
until today I have
never seen our producer Dima who
sometimes appears some kind of Ghost in our
podcast we tell them his something
we ask for something, and mostly
it usually has to do with the fact that Dima will
decide Dima will decide Dima there is no
need to say that No, I played this music or
what or what or what And today we
saw each other live and with all of you we also
see part of it live because  usually you hear us,
and we only imagine you. And all the
people we imagine have materialized into
real people. Nastya said everything simply
flawlessly.  uzi I welcome you to our
audio living room, we are happy to see you and
especially we are happy that we are really surrounded by a
lot of books, we are in bookstores, sense and them We
also thank you for hosting our
podcast
[applause]
Today we are talking about nationalism,
we decided that  that we want to choose
this particular topic, and it is quite logical before the
topic of the speech, but already after the topic of
war, although nationalism is also an
issue related to war. And I want to start
by quoting a poetic text and I
hope that you will recognize it. Clearly,
even more  I hope that everyone will
recognize him and be able to continue
speaking these words after me. I quote from the
middle of the text so as not to suggest. For
us, she is the only one in the world. Alone in space in a
sweet charm, she is in the stars and in the willows,
she is in every heart, the beat in the flower, the
bird in the electro  in the lights in the song In
every thought in the child's smile in the
girl's eyes and all the crimson noise
Love Ukraine so Love Ukraine and
by the way it sounded to me right away Maybe you
heard the orchestra  r used to perform
Love Ukraine
is love
[music]
And when I quote this song, I actually
think to myself that
in 2016 there was such a project, the city of the
east is a Black expedition that traveled to
different cities of the Donetsk Luhansk
regions and tried to find the unique
codes of these cities  something that you can
cling to and around which you can create
some kind of art object, some kind of cultural
space to find some meaning that will be
close and familiar to all the citizens, their report
and the same book about this project is
publicly available and it is very interesting to
read the methodology of how they
all this was investigated, in particular, Sasha Mykhed was engaged in this,
so he discovered for himself,
for example, a photographer called
Zaliznyak, but in addition, in Lysychansk,
they found this code, and this code consisted in the fact
that Saussure was from Lysychansk and it
was necessary to somehow reflect Saussure in the city,
and here they quote  be different graffiti,
this is the text Love Ukraine, but the words
Love Ukraine were not there, and it was still
local in these separate fragments  entah that
in electric lights and in a flower and a bird in
that and fatigue and that everywhere you can find
Ukraine And here it corresponds to the code of this
particular city and it seems to me that
Actually this text corresponds to the codes of
many Ukrainian cities and to
our very identities because we its  we don't
remember. For example, I don't remember it
by heart from school, but here I am, we
start quoting and recalling, and we
can get caught up in it, well, you see,
in fact, I know by heart the text of the
postmodernist Sashko Irvanets, who writes "
love Oklahoma at night and  in the afternoon and
in fact I think today these lines
will be taken away Otherwise And
you can even think about them that this is a certain insult
because when today we read Love
Ukraine, then there is more of that
high pathos in it, which in fact we now
understand and now is the time when we
we understand all capitalized
words, the words love, war, homeland, even and
I think, by the way, now is a great time to
also re-read such texts as
Vivantia because he does not at all deny
that  Oh, Ukraine must be loved. But he
offers to look at it from such a
playful point of view, because he is a postmodernist,
everything is played, he needs this game, he
cannot imagine himself without it.

questions in
all his
public at all his public
events, some lectures, some
discussions, interviews, Vlad Troitsky always asked and
continues to ask, he
stuns the entire audience or his
interlocutor with the question What is Ukraine anyway?

he says No, that's fine, but
what is Ukraine, it's quite provocative, and then
Vlad comes up with some theses that
he needs, presenting his
projects there or some of his leading thoughts at
this moment, but I would still ask
you, Bohdan, what is Ukraine?
I will wave a little and answer that Ukraine is
a story, there is a famous phrase by Edward Seid, of
whom you and I are  It was repeatedly mentioned
in this tip that the nation is on the
walkie-talkie. That is, this is a certain story and
also Benedict Anderson, an important person
for the theory of nationalism, says that the
Nation is a representation of the community.

a story about Ukraine and each
of us has our own story about Ukraine. Ukraine is
important and
definitely Ukraine is the sum of certain
stories that we hear. There are louder voices, there are
less loud voices, there are important private
voices. We know Ukrainian stories from
our homes. Our parents,
grandmothers, they told us something  about one's connection with the
state and one's connection with the country and
that is why Ukraine can be very different and
it is normal. Why is it so
different for every Ukrainian? It is very
inclusive, but there will always be eyes.

it can be from a
conversation about how borscht was cooked at your house
and to some conversation about
comparing patterns on embroidery or whose
house it is  for example, did you draw Easter eggs or
not? Ukraine can be very different and now
I am often asked
by foreigners how I would
describe the Ukrainian identity,
because they do it for a while, that is,
I had the opportunity to prepare and have a
spectacular preparation, and every time I speak
now with  foreigners, I say that the
Ukrainian identity is very inclusive
for me, this is the most important thing to explain, I
always say that Ukraine was formed under the
influence of different cultures and different
state entities, these are very different empires,
this is the
Russian Empire - this is the Austro-Hungarian
Empire, before that we also have the
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth  there is the influence of Islamic
culture, we have different backgrounds, we
have very different cultures, stories, languages,
we have such different national
communities in this country, but what
unites them is this desire to be together, this is respect
for this individual who decided to be
together AND unite in a community and  it
actually makes us terribly
inclusive. That's something that I
think is true  we are determined by chance.
I will quote Myroslav Popovych from an essay on the
history of Ukrainian culture, where he writes
that what makes people Ukraine is not blood
and land, Ukraine makes them, and the culture to
which they are involved.

everything else And I also
asked myself this question and what Ukraine is
and how we imagine it to be. For a long time, this
function was performed by television, and since then the
Internet began to do it. When we
were offered how we can imagine ourselves, I am
sure that you do not remember this show  but
I remember in 2009 there was a show on the 1+1 channel
I love Ukraine, I even
watched it And recently YouTube threw it to me and it
was introduced by Lidia Taran and
there were two teams, the yellow team and
the blue team, people dressed in cubes
no no  this is
this and on another channel and in this show there was
a yellow team and a blue team Nastia
Kamenskyi and Potap, respectively, and there were
some stars and they performed various
tasks  and they answered questions there
were such plasters, sunflowers were sticking out Lydia
Taran was in some bright dresses with
folk patterns and there was a song I
love Ukraine and Everyone said Do you love
Ukraine and the whole hall
yes the country and now Let's guess
what the word zarevo means and  everyone guesses
what the word zarivo means. Well, it sounds like a
terrible dream of a worker of Ukrainian
culture. I don't know what else to call it,
and it is, because then in 2012 this show was
resuscitated, and he is already Yuriy Gorbunov,
but the essence has not changed. There, too, you had to
guess the melody to unravel  a mystery. And this
show was positioned both times as an
entertaining
humorous show. If you have a virgin, you
probably laugh at the jokes of the stars with each other and
where you try to learn some new
interesting facts about Ukraine.

in particular, these
TV presenters offer us to imagine Ukraine, because
then these same TV presenters offer us
to imagine it during the celebration of  I'm
Independence I thought to myself And what will
Independence Day be like this year, it's clear that
it won't be a holiday, but we remember what
we had in the 19-20 and 21st years because of the
asterisk, why I don't remember the previous years
because it was up to 2014  we probably don't
remember what Independence Day is. It
was some kind of scene, some kind of concert on the
Maidan, which may have been broadcast somewhere
since then. It was the main part of it

.
to protect them from this,
all the Independence Day celebrations over the
past three years refreshed my
memory, so to speak, because Well, it's good, because they watched
it for the first time, because I didn't watch it then. Well,
you liked it. So I had a
lot of fun. I rolled my eyes and looked away.
About  ecological expedition That's how
it was, I'm used to the fact that
cultural studies always requires me to
experiment on myself on my
psyche Well, that's what I'm actually doing and
I'm doing it, come on, say it, So 2019  year
Independence Day they try to
sing different anthems then
different choirs sing it and then Alina Pash
Tina Karol in a white dress over the Maidan
also sings to them and there are a lot of different
variations of how it sounds And it was criticized a lot
then because how can you
put such a thing in the anthem  for example, the rap of Vitalina
Pash and why do you need to do it at all
And why exactly on this
musical composition because it is not even a
song This anthem is a specific genre
you need to do these
experiments Why didn't you take them Sichovy
Streltsy or some popular folk
song And there is no discussion  the prices
ended and then Alan Badoev put
it up in 2020, we don’t have any anniversary, the 29th
anniversary of Independence and there is a musical history, do you
remember the musical history of Ukraine where
there were 42 songs on Sofia Square then there
were quarantine restrictions and I
not only watched it for myself, but I
got up What  I wrote about it Well, as a
critic, journalism, as well as journalists,
as well as public figures, how did they react to it
and  then the interview of Lyosh
Bondarenko from Lirun for public
radio was very cool, where he said that there is no
bad or good music, there are different
audiences, so in this selection 42
songs were collected and songs in Ukrainian and
in Russian, songs that are really
in their own way  reflect the history of
Ukrainian music over the years so that
every year there
was a different song every year
And that it has its own right to life,
but why were there stories, what were the
controversies then, that there were artists who performed there
who
also performed in Russia at that time
Dorn was not there, but Lyosha
Bondarenko and public journalists
throw things like, for example, what about Potap.
He performed, for example, after the 14th year in
Russia. Why does he present some
songs on this holiday or the group Vremya y
Steklo, which is also performing in Russia now
I say this and understand that these
characters are currently positive for us
because they articulate
their pro-Ukrainian position in their
social media  networks, but at that time
only two years ago, you see, it caused
some
public resonance and there was a question
that not only pop music was presented,
why there are no other genres, why the musical
history of Ukraine consists only of
popular music and individual fragments of
popular music, and who makes these
decisions  because in addition to the audio part, there was also a
visual picture that was very scary,
well, that is, there were very bad costumes, a
very bad production and it was really
Everything really It was all bad but it was
interpreted as something good because there were
people who defined it as good in
2021  actually we are getting close to
telling the story Sorry for taking so
long I just wanted to
share this the
screenplay of the history of Ukraine DNA of Ukraine is taking place the
birthday of Ukraine where a girl
walks on the Independence Square and experiences
different stages of Ukrainian history
from the ancient northerners to the
year 2021 and at the end gives a bouquet to the
incumbent  to the president
Well, this is the version of the story  which was also
criticized because there was
almost no word at all about Stalin's repressions,
it somehow slipped by so quickly,
there was no mention of the First World War
at all, the emphasis was placed. Quite
strangely, historians first of all criticized
it because, in contrast to all this performance,
it was called precisely the word Performance in the
group  Dance on the Maidan of the Congo, a
song also appeared about the history of Ukraine where they
put
more necessary, let's call it that from the Ukrainian
point of view, accents where they
mention Stalin and repressions about everything, that is,
not some pattern of non-acceptance of the history of
Ukraine, but still some more
progressive
self  I forgot why I told all this,
I just wanted to ask
why you are inclined to tell a story that
how everyone chooses the story that he can
tell about Ukraine, I will say
something unfortunate, but
as everyone knows how, he chooses this
story and there is no disrespect or
something negative because our choice of
history depends on our experience, we
said  about these private contexts. So,
what were you told at home? Some were
really told, for example, in various
images about Stalin's repressions. Although it is a
very difficult lecture for a child, and
some did not, then there was a school that was very
different in different regions. I once
did my own anthropological research,
but in a different way.  I had Twitter
and you didn't have it yet, and I wrote
Here's what they said. Please tell me,
dear friends, what songs did you sing
in music lessons, because at my
Lviv gymnasium there was such a senior
teacher whom I remember with pleasure and
he loved the song very much
He sat down at the piano and
played the songs of the Sich Riflemen. We sang them in chorus, and there
we had very different songs about Tyutyunnyk and the
Galician girls were upset, and all that, well, that
is, we had a normal set, but I
understood that it was obvious that my story was
unconventional in the context of Ukraine, and so
it was.  because a lot of people sang Well,
our free homeland did not develop, but the
apple and pear trees blossomed. This is my
option.  we had a music teacher with an accordion. By the
way, he is a very progressive man, because the city of
Kyiv is a star, the city of Kyiv, Solomyanskyi
district, school 159,
and he
played the accordion, and we wrote a lot of
notes, and at that time he taught us
such a subject as the
study of Ukraine. And from him it is very  good
subject I ask you not to frown because later
with the teacher of Ukrainian studies in the ninth
grade I wrote a manic paper about the
origin of the name Ukraine and got
second place on military questions I
prepared for this podcast well
Dima it was too much of a combine I think
we will solve it
music teacher  he actually said
quite progressive things, he was a cool
older but modern gentleman, but we still
wrote the songs by hand and then
sang them Nadezhda, my compass is with me,
you understand what we sang about
until May 9. Maybe you even
sang Beatles Yesterday in Ukrainian
bedles Yesterday  We sang in English
and in English lessons well But
wait Now we put a full stop I will
continue  what I was leaning towards is
that all this creates that set of history
and with which we generally come out with the
potential to tell what Ukraine
is because when they don't ask what Ukraine is
And you immediately want to say something
private and poignant And it's private and a puppy In
us  very different actually for various reasons,
because for example we understand that at
school during independent Ukraine it
was possible to sing a song from the time of the Second World
War that encouraged soldiers to go into battle with
Soviet soldiers and this creates a set of
stories that are not always pleasant for us and
sometimes you find yourself in  in such a rather
uncomfortable situation when you realize that
this set of your stories does not
really fit with everything that you see now,
especially after February 24, you
talked about tanks, also a very interesting
topic that absolutely corresponds to what
we talked about musicals with you once
musicals where
there is a lot of mockery of typical
Ukrainian clichés gives
shirts embroidered with rhinestones and so on is it
Ukraine Well in my opinion Kol  and I
ask myself if this is Ukraine, then I say no, then I
may calm down a little, I will
calmly say Well, in fact, it is also
Ukraine, because it was
part of popular culture in Ukraine at a certain moment and
formed discourses here, but do I want
it to be Ukraine No  I don't want to and that's why I
'll still take you back from our stories
from life
to Benedict
Anderson one more story
Well a little You have two minutes this will be a
story I think for our audio community
this is the end of the
audio window audio living room what actually audio
living room what was about Thank you to all
listeners  who joined the secret
audio reception This is how you learned about what
international poetry
festivals in Zhytomyr looked like at the
cosmonautics museum I am the
ambassadors for Ukraine
receive such exclusive stories
until the meeting at my solo stand-up
it's hard to go back to what
I needed to say after that, but I guess
it takes days  by dicta Anderson That is, we are
coming back
Listen, I am thinking about the community's perception of
Benedict  Oh Anderson, in his beautiful book, it
is quite short and very
full of life stories that
happened to him. But mainly in his
professional scientific life, he
says that the imagined community
is not a fictional community, it is a
community that is created, that is, when we
imagine, we
create.  when I was preparing for our
conversation today, I thought for a long time about the fact that the
easiest way to capture this creative imagination is in the
texts of writers,
what do you think, when did Ukraine first
begin to be created as an imagined
community, in which texts, let's give a blitz course
from teacher Nastya Yevdokimova
already from September 1
[laughter  ]
From September 1, a

full course for the 9th grade, read by me,
Ms. Anastasia, will appear on the YouTube channel of the All-Ukrainian School online, and there you will be able to find
answers to all these questions. Because
in reality, the imagined community
already begins somewhere. If you believe Frank Hrushevskyi
and other researchers of the ancient  of literature
already somewhere in the times of Kyivan Rus, when in the
annals you can find traces of  at the level of
language, at the level of images, at the level of topics that
show us that in fact, somewhere then,
this idea
of ​​Ukrainian is Ukrainianness begins to crystallize. And so it
drags on, drags on, drags on until
a new Ukrainian literature appears,
because Ivan Kotlyarevskyi in the Aeneid in
1798 writes about the whole  a real nation for himself,
which he understands as something integral, yes, for
him it is the Cossacks, yes, for him, they are
different, for him, they are funny, for him, they are
funny, but this corresponds to Benedict
Anderson, who in particular says that a nation is
characterized by the fact that we cannot
know all the members of our community, we
can  we can only imagine them, and that's why
Kotlyarevskyi shows us a fragment,
and he starts by showing us a
fragment, and then these fragments are gradually
strung together like a necklace on a thread. Yes,
but no, at the same time, there are many necklaces,
many threads, but one appeared, and
ten hundred Hutsul women left from her
gerdan so because every text that
appears after Kotlyarevskyi A has
predecessors. That is, Tse ts  and themes, these images
were already somewhere. Of course, we look for roots
in the Bible, later, of course.

Well, we have to draw inspiration
from Kotlyarevsky, and from Kotlyarevsky begins such a
rapid development that we cannot
stop to this day,
children cannot, our enemies cannot
either.

i.e.
at home for the hearth for good health,
tell yourself how much Lisa has, but to do
cool theater productions, but to
translate literature for you and I
mentioned a bunch of such examples right away, the
first thing in my head is Mykola Kulish
with his translations of Shakespeare, because it does not
belong to the great Shakespeare  sound in the
Ukrainian language and there are examples of such
an incredible amount of growth until,
in fact, the era that you and I
talk about repeatedly, until the Shot-to-death
renaissance, then again We have it like
this.

a new explosion and a new
surge, but there are nuances of Bohdan. Because when,
for example, the
Ukrainian Institute of Books and the
Ministry of Culture prepared such a
project as a thousand books, let's
translate a thousand of the most important books.
Well, it is not known in Europe, the humanitarianism of the world, from
which thousand books they could not come to an
agreement. That is why this project was not
implemented. But
among those books that would need to be
translated, various professional communities, both
economic and there medical, said
that And you, please translate dictionaries
and some and certain types of reference books,
because we need terminology, well, this is the
problem that actually existed in the 90s,
because  in the Soviet Union to defend a
doctoral dissertation in philosophy in
Ukrainian  it was forbidden, you had
to do it in Russian, as in other
fields, so you used
Russian terminology, but as we
can see, everything is very much given to
creation and to creation, in fact, the
Ukrainian language is very plastic. And
we have already talked about it, so I see.

about her and then I will still talk about
kundera because you mentioned it, I may not
open it Oksana Zabuzhko You just
mentioned the translations yourself, I want to quote
Oksana
Zabuzhko Oksana Zabuzhko how they cut down the Cherry Orchard in
2021 say who is to blame or in search of a
Little Russian woman page 32
for three  generations, starting from the
post-war Stalinist course on spiritual
import and substitution for an Orville world
in which everything even a little remarkable was created,
invented, discovered, built by Russians,
it was possible to engage in Ukrainian studies in
Ukraine only on the condition that, as in the case of
Muslims, 5 times a day,
bowing to the great  Russian
culture and its beneficial effect on Ukrainian
life  iv
and further on
pages 32-33-34, Oksana Zabuzhko writes

that without talking about how the Russians
influenced, which Russians lived here or there, who
taught where, it was impossible to do without all these memorial
signs and plaques, it was
impossible to move  further, but here is
this reverse movement, when how Ukrainians
influenced and
formed certain discourses in the Great Empire,
almost nothing or
very
little is written about it.

was able who broke through who
broke away Or he is not perceived as
part of the national culture, I would
still delimit the west to Russia here
because when you and I talked about
Gogol, for example, after all, we
faced criticism and comments where
we were told that Gogol was not  Ukrainian
author Why are you dragging him, I will not
develop this discussion now, but
we see it in very different examples,
you and I talked about the frying pan, which
Russia also tried to  to reappropriate
repeatedly and this continues to
this day, but we really do not
talk about this reverse influence, that is Vera
Ageeva, about whom I like to talk.

the nations themselves, the peoples of which she could only
humiliate, only break and only
suck out their resources,
I really wanted to talk to you, after
all, you know in detail just
to understand what makes a culture
national, because in some episodes of
our podcast with you, we talked about the
fact that the peculiarity is really  of outstanding
culture Are they artists Are they
writers Are they directors is it in its
universality This culture is understandable
for different contexts and that is why we
can read with enthusiasm, let's say,
novels by Fitzgerald or Hemingway, we
read Rabelais and Regochu, he is
understandable to us, we understand that culture is
international in some way  there is some
general history of cool  De Kunder's works
are very classy in the context of the novel, he calls it the
sum of discoveries, he says that the history of the
European novel is the sum of such
discoveries that can be made only in
the form of a novel, and he analyzes what these
discoveries are at the same time. He still talks
about the importance of national culture and
what it is  this national attachment is what
makes the culture Ukrainian
Bohdan, you have thought about this question longer
than me, maybe you have an answer
Yes, I have an answer, of course,
I think that what makes a culture Ukrainian is
its self-name and language, I mean the
creators If the creator writes in Ukrainian  here is
enough. We simply understand that most
likely this is a work of Ukrainian literature,
it is not so sterile, we understand
that Ukrainian culture was created in other
languages ​​and it is not only Russian, it is also
Polish, Crimean Tatar. These are the different
cultures we talked about, but it is
also the desire to be called Ukrainian and
belong to this Ukrainian culture and
here we can choose different examples
in fact, I stopped at two, I will tell
you about them, the first one is the director Serhiy
Loznytsia,
who
presents himself as a Ukrainian when he
will be at the Kanoychina other festivals through
whom we read Ukraine and we understand
that he broadcasts narratives harmful to Ukraine
because he is a person who
calls the Second World War  on the territory of
Ukraine, a great country, and in general
he is a person who came out of the Soviet
Union, who promotes this cosmopolitanism,
which was voiced in the Union, which by and
large meant Russianness and not
cosmopolitanism, on the other hand, I think of the
example of Patricia Kylyna, she is a poet who
belonged to the New York  group her
maiden name is Patrytsia nelworean and
this is a woman who married Yury
Tarnavskyi and learned Ukrainian and
began to write very good poems she
was published by the publishing house of the New York
group she is an American of Irish
origin But is the name itself and
this choice made by her as well  As a Ukrainian poetess,
I am convinced that she does instead that there are
vines  this Ukrainian director can be
viewed in different ways because he chooses the title itself,
but I have great doubts whether to
call him a Ukrainian director. You
already mentioned the troubadours of the empire and
Eva Thompson is really small in terms of
text, which we also advise you to read and
there Eva Thomson reviews various
books about colonization and decolonization, and in
these
books she actually lists what
can be applied to the Russian Empire of the
Soviet Union and what
can only be applied to Britain and other
countries and their colonies, and here she
writes that in the English language there is no
distinction between nation and state at all
I thought about citizenship and nationality
for myself, because for us
citizenship and nationality are
slightly different words and we
can perceive them differently, we
can distinguish who you are by
citizenship, what nationality are you,
these are two different lines in self-identification
that is why, in
addition to the example of Patricia Kylyna and Serhiy
Loznytsia, we can cite
Mark Vovchka's kindergarten, who also studied
Ukrainian, she was a Russian woman who, yes, she
studied somewhere in Kharkiv, but who should not
have written in Ukrainian and should not
have become the first Ukrainian-speaking
Ukrainian writer who we not only
teach in school, but who we really put
on this  pedestal
She was the first, but she started to do it. It was
simple for the wrestler, it was organic. That is, it
was something not like a choice. It was like a vocation,
it was her vocation. My vocation.
To be Ukrainian, God, how beautiful
it is. You know it. I don't know how to say flirtatiously.
My vocation is  to inspire So we
wrote our book like fishermen The Cherry
Orchard Oksana Zabuzhko also writes This I didn't mean it
seriously But I wrote it seriously too

I would really like to talk about some
example that will be a little more distant from
us because there is such a thing that also
annoys me in communication with  this is
what foreigners say
You are very emotional You are in the epicenter of events You are
terribly oversaturated This is my emotions
I always want to say Yes no
I can choose  you are the words that I use, and when
I say that there is a genocide
organized by Russia in Ukraine, I say What do
I mean? Well, this is just an example of a
word.

to talk to you about Milan
Kundera. I love Milan Kundera. He is the author
who opened my reading of adult
literature. I took about a dozen books from my mother,
there were stamps from the Cortásar and
others, and I thought, if I want to be an adult
girl, I need to read
adult literature, this literature  my mother read it
when she was studying to be a journalist. She is
cool, so I will read Milan Kunder.
But fortunately, my mother has impeccable taste,
so I was also lucky to come across
very cool texts. But about Kunder,
Kunder meets
Soviet tanks in Prague.
in the
68th year, he is also a superstar, he
teaches at the film academy, he writes novels,
he writes drama, which is in full
swing  he is super popular,
the soviet government comes, he never
just says soviet He always says the
Russian Empire or the Soviet Union is
represented by Russia He emphasizes this very clearly
And he will live another 7 years in
Czechoslovakia until he decides that he
needs to go and there is a very interesting person in the counter
an essay and a link to which we will add a description
to this podcast, which is called the introduction
to the variation, this is an essay that was published
in the New York Times and which is before the language
of one of his later dramas, which, by the
way, were staged in Suzanne umbrellas, there he
talks about this first experience of his
meeting with the
Soviet  by the authorities But we do not
touch anything else before this essay there is an editorial introduction from the
New York Times where he is immediately called the
Czechoslovak writer Milan Kundera
he is called that despite the fact that he has already
lived in France for more than 10 years at that time
he already started writing in French a long time ago
he is already an author
the famous unbearable lightness of being, he has
already proved to everyone that he chose this language for
himself, a completely different one
I am more interested in the conversation about how authors choose a language here,
that changing the language does not mean changing
your attribution, they continue to
call it the choice of a Czechoslovak author,
although we know that Kundera had a terrible
relationship with his homeland, and only
a few years ago a prize came to him in
Paris  the prime minister of the Czech Republic and Kundera
agreed to accept the Czech citizenship of
which he was forcibly deprived and
instead handed over his home private
library to his native city.
I would be very interested to reflect on the
example of Kundera and authors like him
who
feel that the West is losing, but he in
this essay of his  he writes that he
witnesses the farewell to the west, he writes
Forever West
[music]
what is their national culture, I think
about it, Ukrainians in the
diaspora who understood that they are Ukrainians,
but they are not from the Ukrainian SSR, and
this is a very, very difficult attribution,
in fact, if you cut it short  my
example is
my question to you. This is what
national culture needs  which we have been talking about
for almost an hour now, the national state behind
its shoulders is probably in need, because
it is necessary to rely on something, if we
give the example of
Vasyl Makhno, a modern Ukrainian
writer who has lived in
New York for many years and who
remains a Ukrainian
writer, what are we talking about Makhno  wrote
If he did not describe the beaches of New York,
he would still write about his native
Ternopil region, returning to Chortkovo
in order to walk those
roads again to compare them And how I
used to be there And how it is there and how I was in
childhood  the memory
of this Ukraine as it remained
in stone in his memories allows
him to create something new and in fact something
similar happened with a New York
group that was also they were in
New Yorkers they
went to cafes they lived their
New York  York life, but when they met in
this cafe, they remembered and tried to
recreate in their memory how it was somewhere there, how it
was in that tradition, because they still
belong more to  Physically, they didn't see
this Ukraine even like that, but
they wanted it, they imagined it, this is an
imagined community. I immediately think of
Tanya Malyarchuk, because your example is
absolutely

flawless.  According to the Frankish text, she
grew out of the Stanislavian phenomenon,
then she goes to Kyiv and eventually
ends up in Vienna. In Vienna, she learns
German to such an extent that she can
write in it not so perfectly that she receives
Austrian and German prizes for her
writing. But she always returns to her writing
.  to the topic of Ukraine, and
we once ordered a story from her for
the Reporters magazine, it was still such a
text, it reminds me of Tanya from top to
bottom. But she probably also read And you love this
collection of stories, and
for sure it is very important for them, it is very
difficult to ask the writer
when  you get to him, for example, for
an interview or you conduct some kind of public conversation with them
What are you sleeping  dad, is it important
to you what is here in Ukraine Well, it is clear
that it is important,
I once had an interview with
Yaroslav the Melnyk, Yaroslav the Melnyk, who
actually
lives in Lithuania for many, very, many years
and has long considered himself a Lithuanian
writer, so he  he writes in Ukrainian,
so some Ukrainian contexts are important for him,
but he has lived there for a long time and his
life and everything he observes, everything
he can draw for his literature
is still there, and it seemed to me then from
this interview, which seems to have never happened anywhere
and it lies somewhere in some of my
private archives, and then you will know the
ten-volume Anastasia Yevdokymova You would
n't have published
hard disk,
and I tried to ask him about it, about
whether he feels this connection, does
he need Ukraine here, he then
had 2 or three texts in a row
in Ukrainian in leading publishing houses, but
I understood that he doesn't think anything about
it, he doesn't care about it, and if these texts had
n't appeared here, nothing terrible would have
happened, you know. I think that this  in fact, a
very honest answer for washing, because the
artist does not have to be the prophet of the nation, and
he can become a creator not
involuntarily, but want to take this position -
this is some kind of unhealthy approach, but
I finally have an applied one in literature and
in art. I really like u
Lviv apartments-museums and my two favorite
ones are the museum of Oleksa Novakivskyi, which is
opposite the Yura Cathedral. It is such an amazing
red villa that you just really want to
go into when you just see it and then
refuse that it is the museum of Novakivskyi.
Where was his workshop, where his
family lived and very  similar to him, the Ivan Trush museum is

also a house that Trush built for
his family, for his wife and children, this is the
end of the double tram in Lviv, but the
story is not about that, these are very cool museums,
every time I'm there, I look at
Trush's work, it's something very impressionistic, I
look at Novakivskyi  which are very
expressionistic artists who had the
opportunity to travel all over the world who
studied well and who were
humble  the leadership of Metropolitan Sheptytskyi,
but what did they lack? This is a
national state, because
it was not lacking for Vrubel, who could
get to Venice, a scabiena, but
in the end, it was not lacking later.
Oleksandr Ekster, whom we talked about with you
and who also later
designed the Soviet pavilion at the Venice
Biennale  but we see what price
Alexander Exter, whose work is
popular in Russia and who is recognized as a
Russian avant-garde, and Trush and
Novakivskyi were very strong people,
but they were very unlucky because they did not
have a country behind their shoulders that they
could represent it as Zabuzhko  about
which you and I also think we even
discussed this quote as she arrives
and presents her Soviet passport at the hotel and is
asked where are you from And she really wants to
say that
my country will soon be on the map it will be
but it is not there yet And at this moment You
understand  what does all this talk about the
fact that possible internationalism was
invented by the Russians in order to
convince and  our enslaved peoples also
became
Russians or very close brothers of
Russians in
1965, precisely after the premiere of the film
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors in the cinemas of Ukraine,
when so many Ukrainian artists became
and began to protest against the
arrests, after that Ivan Dzyuba wrote a
book, Tonsenko, such a pamphlet,
internationalism or Russification, I her
now I will quote it on purpose just
to save it for the episode about the
language, because we will certainly also talk
about the Ukrainian language, this question is
very acute and relevant today, but I
would like to ask you Bohdan in the
meantime, I only said this because you
mentioned the word internationalism  And I got so
attached to him and the basis in my
head was to ask you about that, because
we brought this question up for ourselves in the announcement of
what it is like to be a nationalist today, that's
somehow it's a shame.

avoid
or can Perhaps today, on the contrary, it is once again in
trend to call s
I'm a bourgeois nationalist. I don't know.
[music]
Well, I'll say it. If I wanted to and how I
think I am. I wish the word
nationalist didn't have the color that
Soviet and
then Russian propaganda created
for it. Because being a nationalist is simply being a
citizen of one's country when I  I say I'm
Ukrainian This is the same thing I would say I'm a
Ukrainian nationalist if I were
French and I said I'm French and Here's
my flag, you see the flag I also said
my French Well, I'm afraid I'll just make a
mistake in pronunciation, maybe we'll listen to it I'm a
French teacher and then she criticizes me with
the
word I would  I wanted this word not to have
such an emotional color as it
does, but it has it because of specific reasons, and
we can also see it in the examples of foreign
journalists who
have been so useful for Russia for years
and spoke, and here are solid
nationalists, here these nationalists just
like that  that's how they used to
say, but being a nationalist is the
same as being a
Christian  being a Jew is the same
as being straight or gay or bi. It's just there,
it's just another sign, there's white, there's
red, there's brown, there's yellow, and
I'm very sorry that nationalism becomes a
brand or a challenge, because then you
think, God, maybe being Ukrainian is
something  over Maybe I'm provoking someone by
saying that I'm Ukrainian, I love my
country, that I wear elements of
national clothing, or that it's just
part of the norm, part of something ordinary,
but that's what I said.

worked to brand the word nationalism, this
also happened in Europe, this
happened in particular because the very idea of
nationalism is not very suitable for the
European Union, which tries to
encourage
cultural individuality, cultural
diversification, but they need a single
economic space for a lot of
things, and the word nationalism really became an
insult because of that  It seems to me that everyone who
uses it deliberately, especially if
you do it  in communication with foreigners, it is
almost taken into account that this word has
its flair and its soul,
saying a thousand times that the swastika is a
sign of the sun, but it is a sign of Hitler, of course, the
word nationalism is not so well-
known, but it really is decades of
work by many universities, very influential
leaders, just dozens of people  who
liked to think like that, it was about
saying that being a nationalist is a
disaster, you just want to kill everyone.
That's what it is, but actually, people who have read
Ego Thompson know that nationalism is
protective.

turns
into fascism, this is the nationalism of the Russian
Federation, they also say that they are
implementing the idea of ​​Russia, so
it seems to me that you should
be very careful with the word nationalism, and if you are not
convinced that it should be used in
this context, it is better to call yourself a
Ukrainian patriot. I think it is
perceived much more delicately  as in
our society
you can make something foreign on your own. Come on, we're
getting close to the end, so we need to get
rid of so many ideas and thoughts that can be
said. I just thought about
whether a T-shirt with Bandera equates to
nationalism. I would ask if the
intellectual level of our conversation was a little
lower, and it was not.  ask Yes, you already
asked, you know well, when I watched the
performance of the Kalush group, now I will be the person
who will talk about show business,
show business news, this is not news, you all
know it, it's just extra for me when I
watched the performance of the Kalush group at
Eurovision  then I thought about the phrase of Stepan
Bandera that one day the day will come When one
will say Glory to Ukraine and hundreds and
thousands will answer him Glory to the Heroes We
thought that this day would not come and the slogan
Glory to Ukraine that happened on the Maidan
nationalists now Everyone says
Glory to the Heroes people in different languages ​​know
how  is to transliterate every foreigner on
Twitter, if he wants to please you for Ukraine, you will
go to his description  in the bio
And it will have a Ukrainian
flag and write Glory to Ukraine and the
T-shirt with Bandera also changes the context,
but today the contexts change a lot of
categories and that is why we made a
prompt for now without a name. Thank you for being
with us today, put stars and leave
comments.  be sure to become a part of the
community for Ukrainian with the mussel because together
we are stronger what we read Next
time we have Next time we read the
city of Valerian Pidmogilny Bohdan
really wanted us to finally read this
text and it is connected to all topics and
to the topic  nationalism and the topic of language And
autumn is approaching And the work begins with the
autumn of the main character in Kyiv, so we
are ready to the maximum in order to walk
around and look for a place where Stepan
Radchenko What was he doing twisting cows' tails,
for example,
in particular, but not only Also, this book was
chosen for  reading club Za
ukrainians which takes place offline which
takes place online and therefore can be
read and used many times  take
this opportunity to talk about this book and
listen and talk and share
thoughts and generally Thank you for being with us
in our audio reception we will hear
[applause]
[music]
and everything is possible now