audiohacked / googlecodeimport-dotmac

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****Snow Leopard Thread**** #110

Open GoogleCodeExporter opened 9 years ago

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
For the time being, please post any problems with using dotmac with snow
leopard in this thread.

Original issue reported on code.google.com by rob....@gmail.com on 27 Aug 2009 at 11:02

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 27 Aug 2009 at 11:03

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Can't access my iDisk from Finder. (Message in log: 
[error] [client XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX] Digest: uri mismatch - </mobilemename> does 
not match request-uri 
</mobilemename/>

(Accessing iDisk via Safari (https://idisk.mac.com/mobilemename/ works fine)

Original comment by Thomas.G...@gmx.de on 1 Sep 2009 at 2:56

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Sync doesn't work
I can log in to my mobile me account via pref pane, but syncing doesn't work.

Original comment by Thomas.G...@gmx.de on 1 Sep 2009 at 3:01

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
From a wipe&install, after adding the cert and relogging, it is not possible to 
get past initial authentication.

Unknown Validation Error
Your MobileMe member name or password may be invalid. Please enter a different 
name or password.

Server logs:
==> /var/log/httpd-error.log <==
[Tue Sep  1 19:14:30 2009] -e: Notify found a new kid on the block at: /locate 
at 
/var/www/dotmac/perlmodules/DotMac/Notify.pm line 43
[Tue Sep  1 19:14:30 2009] -e: Use of uninitialized value in length at 
/var/www/dotmac/perlmodules/DotMac/Notify.pm line 45.
[Tue Sep  1 19:14:30 2009] -e: Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry 
at 
/var/www/dotmac/perlmodules/DotMac/Notify.pm line 48.

==> /usr/local/logs/idiskAccesslog <==
notify.mac.com 10.1.1.165 - - [01/Sep/2009:19:14:30 -0400] "GET 
/locate?rhooper&type=dmSharedServices 
HTTP/1.1" 200 - "-" "CSConfigDotMacCert/1.0 CFNetwork/454.4 Darwin/10.0.0 
(i386) (MacBook5%2C1)"

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 1 Sep 2009 at 11:15

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@Thomas.G

Verify in your dotmac.conf that DirectorySlash is either set to on or commented 
out.

@royhooper

Did you regenerate the cert. The one in SVN is expired. Can you visit 
https://www.mac.com without getting 
an error message (in safari) ?  I don't think the /locate problem is your 
issue, I think its more likely a problem 
with your cert.  

I've just done some work on certificate support/locate, so if you are 
experienced in perl. you can try the 
robsworking branch. If you go this route, keep in mind that a) I reserve the 
right to check in broken code 
whenever I feel like it, and b) I will not respond to bug reports about it, but 
I will accept patches.  If you go this 
route, you will need to merge changes from the supplied dotmac.conf into your 
actual dotmac.conf. 

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 1 Sep 2009 at 11:30

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
I checked and the cert was outdated.  I've updated the cert, and my 10.5.8 
machine continues to be happy (after 
updating the cert).  Safari is happy.

I think I'll give your branch a try now.

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 2 Sep 2009 at 12:49

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@royhooper
I'm still pretty confident its related to the cert. Is the cert in your System 
or
Login keychain? What are the trust settings for it in Keychain Access?

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 2 Sep 2009 at 1:23

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
It was in login.  Always trust.  Moved it to system, always trust.  Same 
problem.

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 2 Sep 2009 at 2:01

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Aha!  You're right, it was a cert issue.  I had to change it to explicitly 
Always Trust for *all* items in the trust tab 
(via the handy dropdown that changes them all).

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 2 Sep 2009 at 2:03

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@Thomas.G

It appears that apple has added some new webdav methods that appear to do 
pretty much
what the old ones do. I'm taking a look at it now.

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 2 Sep 2009 at 2:09

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Yeah, it doesn't sync.. Anything you want me to track down?

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 2 Sep 2009 at 2:16

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@royhooper
Unless you feel like coding, I'm all set. In the past when they needed to move a
file, they use the MOVE webdav method. Now they have decided that MOVE is no 
longer
good enough, and it looks like they now use POST with an X-Webdav-Method header 
of
SSMOVE. We already have the framework for the bastardized Webdav methods, so 
I'll
just have to add another one. It hopefully won't take long to fix, but I 
probably
won't be able to look it at until tomorrow night. 

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 2 Sep 2009 at 2:44

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@Rob See
I don't have any DirectorySlash statement in my dotmac.conf file.

Original comment by Thomas.G...@gmx.de on 2 Sep 2009 at 1:48

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
update your iLife branch. This should fix it enough to let you sync.

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 2 Sep 2009 at 11:55

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Please let me know if you have success with it.

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 3 Sep 2009 at 12:59

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
My attempts to get the iLife branch going aren't looking good right now.  
Despite my debugging efforts, I 
keep getting a $parms->add_config() has failed: PerlSetVar takes two arguments, 
PerlSetVar at 
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/mach/Apache2/PerlSections.pm line 215.\n

I tried coaxing something useful out of the die message with:
use Carp qw(confess cluck);
$SIG{__DIE__} = sub { confess @_ };
$SIG{__WARN__} = sub { cluck @_ };

WIth no success...  I'm at a loss, as all visible calls to add_config run fine 
(print debugging before/after).

Any suggestions on what to look at next?

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 4 Sep 2009 at 12:53

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Hmm that's in Apache2/PerlSections.pm post_config, and its only passing one 
arg.  Seems like it must be module 
issues.

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 4 Sep 2009 at 12:54

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
try just throwing anything into the LoggingTypes variable. That one has been a
problem for me in the past. If that doesn't work, you can ship me your 
dotmac.conf
and I will take a look.

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 4 Sep 2009 at 1:12

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
That did it.  Now to track down the locking failure preventing syncs...

[Thu Sep 03 22:26:16 2009] [info] [client 10.1.1.20] In the DotMacKit 
SyncServices Section
[Thu Sep 03 22:26:16 2009] [error] [client 10.1.1.20] Could not MOVE/COPY 
/rhooper/Library/Application 
Support/SyncServices/Schemas/com.apple.Keychain due to a failed precondition on 
the destination (e.g. 
locks).  [412, #0]
[Thu Sep 03 22:26:16 2009] [error] [client 10.1.1.20] (2)No such file or 
directory: The precondition(s) specified 
by the "If:" header did not match this resource. At least one failure is 
because: a State-token was supplied, but 
it was not found in the locks on this resource.  [412, #0]

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 4 Sep 2009 at 2:33

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
I've got the first part of this fixed (the part causing the lock error) but it
revealed another issue. It looks like I really need to return the correct 
information
for the SSMOVE webdav call. I'm planning to work on that tonight.

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 4 Sep 2009 at 2:17

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Update from svn and try again.

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 5 Sep 2009 at 1:28

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Working like a charm.  Thanks!

Original comment by royhoo...@gmail.com on 5 Sep 2009 at 3:09

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
There will be another update tomorrow to fix idisk syncing

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 5 Sep 2009 at 3:14

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Got my iDisk and iCal syncing working with SnowLeopard - yay! Thanks!

Just tried the iPhoto gallery, here's what I'm getting:

1. log into dotmac account using the mobileme pref pane
2. fire up iPhoto, choose an event and select Share => MobileMe Gallery
3. There's a dialog, suggesting I log in or learn more about MobileMe
4. Choose "sign in" opens up the mobileme pref pane, showing the user stats. 

When this happens, I see no entry neither in Console.app nor in the 
idiskAccessLog
That's as far as I'm getting -- what am I missing?

Thanks!

iLife branch (934) and 10.6.1, iPhoto 8.1 (415)
Server is a debian lenny w/ patched apache. I've just migrated successfully 
from a
trunk server. Also did the gallery fixes as described in the guide. 

Original comment by zieg...@einklickdruck.de on 19 Sep 2009 at 6:47

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@ziegler

you might be missing a few hosts in your .hosts file or in your (Apache) 
dotmac.conf
Also check if iPhoto polls for a (missing) config file.

As you've gotten this far you also might want to try out the 'robsworking' 
branch. Rob started this branch for 
testing his development on SnowLeopard; it contains the latest fixes as well 
though.
This branch will get merged with iLife soon, and down to trunk shortly after.

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 20 Sep 2009 at 6:36

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Hi There!
i installed from ilife-branch. server should fit all requirements 
(Suse10/apache2/Mysql5/php5 and all 
required perl modules...)

apachectl breaks with
/usr/sbin/apache2ctl: line 93:  5842 Segmentation fault      $HTTPD 
${httpd_conf+-f $httpd_conf} -k $ARGV
after:
<Directory /var/www/dotmac/idisk/WebObjects/Comments.woa>
Allow from all
</Directory>

Any help?   Tks so much, gerhard

Original comment by hufnagl....@googlemail.com on 29 Sep 2009 at 12:06

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@ gerhard
Try setting: my $LoggingTypes = '"none"'; in dotmac.conf (it is set to '""' by 
default).
This is the default setting now (I updated SVN as well).

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 5 Oct 2009 at 5:07

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
hm, thanks, but doesn't change anything. same error...

Original comment by hufnagl....@googlemail.com on 5 Oct 2009 at 5:19

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@gerhard
can you verify if mod_perl is loaded by then ?
LoadModule perl_module modules/mod_perl.so

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 6 Oct 2009 at 8:05

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Yes, mod_perl is loaded...

Original comment by i...@american-nails.com on 8 Oct 2009 at 7:11

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@gerhard
I'm afraid I need some more system info;
what apache version are you using; did you (successfully) patch and build from 
source?
is sqlite3 installed ? can you query the db from the commandline ?

tracking down configuration issues can be done by deleting 'nodes' from 
dotmac.conf bottom upwards
( in your case above <Directory /var/www/dotmac/idisk/WebObjects/Comments.woa />

you might want to try installing from the 'robsworking' branch;
we're working on merging it with the iLife branch;
it has the latest updates and - more important - some nice setup scripts.
We would like to have your feedback on installing from there

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 8 Oct 2009 at 9:30

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
// I'm afraid I need some more system info;
No problem...   ;)

// what apache version are you using; did you (successfully) patch and build 
from source?
Apache 2.2.8; Yes. Before upgrading to Snow Leopard, DotMac worked like a 
charm... :(

// is sqlite3 installed ? can you query the db from the commandline ?
I'm not quite a pro with sqlite3...
#  sqlite3
#  sqlite> .databases
#  seq  name             file                                                   

#  ---  ---------------  
----------------------------------------------------------
#  0    main                                                                    

#  sqlite> .exit

// tracking down configuration issues can be done by deleting 'nodes' from 
dotmac.conf bottom upwards
// ( in your case above <Directory 
/var/www/dotmac/idisk/WebObjects/Comments.woa />

hmmm...
$s->add_config([split /\n/,$conf]);
if i comment this out, apachectl runs without error, but i think this line 
applies the configuration, right?

//you might want to try installing from the 'robsworking' branch;
//we're working on merging it with the iLife branch;
//it has the latest updates and - more important - some nice setup scripts.
//We would like to have your feedback on installing from there

i think, i'll do this...

thanks, gerhard

Original comment by hufnagl....@googlemail.com on 9 Oct 2009 at 1:42

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
grmpf...
-bash: ./01_check_deps.sh: /bin/bash^M: bad interpreter: No such file or 
directory

???

Original comment by hufnagl....@googlemail.com on 9 Oct 2009 at 2:38

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
did you ftp the files from somewhere ? If you are on linux, you can run 
dos2unix to fix the line endings.

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 9 Oct 2009 at 3:13

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@gerhard

I would suggest checking out svn/robsworking directly on your linux system.
Like Rob suggests ( the ^M is a windows line ending) your text files probably 
get screwed up whilst transferring 
(in text mode).
Try contacting me over email (@gmail.com).
And please _do_ take notes whilst installing; we'll need to produce a new 
theGuide for the iLife branch (and 
document pitfalls as well)

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 9 Oct 2009 at 4:51

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Hi there!
Did checkout on the linux-server. Now, the scripts are working well.
3 modules "missing"...
Checking Perl Modules
Installed: DBI
Installed: DBD::SQLite
Installed: Crypt::SSLeay
Installed: LWP::UserAgent
Installed: JSON
Installed: Apache::Session::File
Not Installed: DateTime 
Not Installed: DateTime::Format::HTTP 
Installed: POSIX
Installed: Compress::Zlib
Installed: Image::ExifTool
Installed: Imager
Installed: HTTPD::UserAdmin
Installed: MD5
Installed: XML::DOM
Installed: HTTP::DAV
Installed: XML::LibXML
Not Installed: Embperl 
Bad::: There are 3 missing modules. dotMobile.us will not run correctly until 
this is fixed.

But DateTime and DateTime::Format::HTTP ARE installed an in latest version.
Emperl does not install due an error in the downloaded Build-File. I'll try to 
get this fixed...

all other setup-script working fine. generated conf is installed in 
/etc/dotmobile.us and the dotmac.conf is 
placed right and is configured.
ca and cert generated and cert downloaded to client-machine (10.6.1)
 $ sudo security add-trusted-cert -d -r trustRoot -k /Library/Keychains/System.keychain dotMacCA.pem
 $ SecCertificateAddToKeychain: CSSMERR_CL_UNKNOWN_FORMAT

apache2ctl does not produce any error at all.
virtualhosts generated in dotmac.conf are not working...    :/
idisk.die-hufnagls.de is pointing to the default-hosting...

g, gerhard

Original comment by hufnagl....@googlemail.com on 12 Oct 2009 at 8:32

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@gerhard

afaik Embperl isn't needed anymore; we switched to 'Template' (which is bundled 
already). (Rob?)

try running 'perl -MDateTime -e1' and 'perl -MDateTime::Format::HTTP -e1' from 
the commandline;
if they return anything (Can't locate ... )  it means perl can't find the 
modules. Install with: sudo perl -MCPAN -
e 'install DateTime' _and_ sudo perl -MCPAN -e 'install DateTime::Format::HTTP' 
then. (and test again 
afterwards)

Do you have other virtual hosts configured besides the dotmac ones? If so, 
disable them and test again; this 
might be a problem mixing ip and name based virtual hosts. Also check if the 
ip-address you entered is the 
local one when behind a NAT router.

Rob might be able to help you out with the certificate thing. (Rob?)

A global note: did you install libjpeg  headers (libjpeg-devel) before 
installing Imager? While you're at it, you 
also might want to check if you have the freetype headers (freetype-devel) 
installed; you might be needing 
these in a day or two :)
(after installing, rebuild Imager (force install from the cpan shell)

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 12 Oct 2009 at 11:56

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
totenkopf:~ # perl -MCPAN -e 'install DateTime'
CPAN: Storable loaded ok (v2.18)
Going to read '/root/.cpan/Metadata'
  Database was generated on Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:27:14 GMT
CPAN: YAML loaded ok (v0.65)
Going to read 21 yaml files from /root/.cpan/build/
CPAN: Time::HiRes loaded ok (v1.9711)
DONE
Restored the state of none (in 0.2727 secs)
DateTime is up to date (0.50).
totenkopf:~ # 

hm...   don't really know what to do...

there are other virtual hosts. disabling them doesn't change anything.

there is no NAT Router. It's a private root-server, SuseLinux 10

Original comment by hufnagl....@googlemail.com on 12 Oct 2009 at 12:07

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
iLife version of dotmac. FreeBSD 6.4.

iDisk works prety good from Snow Leopard (10.6.1), but from Leopard (10.5.7) 
not.
I can acsess to MobileMe account from 10.5.7 and 10.6.1 both.

Original comment by k.dyak...@gmail.com on 21 Oct 2009 at 6:27

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Update on Comment #39
In Leopard 10.5.7 access to idisk works only with Sync mode. And some times 
works some times not.

Original comment by k.dyak...@gmail.com on 21 Oct 2009 at 2:35

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@ k.dyakoff
try using the 'robsworking' branch for now
we're close to merging that branch down to iLife  and trunk

please take notes whilst installing

did you patch apache ?

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 23 Oct 2009 at 6:45

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Hi there,
first of all I wanna thank you a lot for your good work! 

Secondly, I'd like to give some feedback on my observations when installing 
dotmac on Snow Leo Server (10.6.1) with build-in 
apache 2.2.11. The client(s) are also running 10.6.1. 

I started using v0.5 and the Leo guide and got quite far. Patching the modules, 
creating new users (with htdigest manually), 
cert import (manually), Pref pane login successfully according to logfiles. 
Even the quota-o-meter stated the correct value. 
Sadly, syncing failed. I only checked iDisk -- I hadn't have nerve enough to 
sync my personal data at that point :)

So, somewhat stuck at that point, I dug into the issues here and found hints 
about robsworking branch which also was said to 
be the one for Snow Leo. This one is a bit more troublesome to me since I'm a 
Perl-newbe and in general it is lesser 
documented (which is ok for a work-in-progress-state). I'm running in touble 
with the check "01_check_deps.sh"-script 
which is throwing errors I cannot fix (though I got a good impression of the 
power of CPAN, generally).

This is my break point so far:

-----
setup root# ./01_check_deps.sh 
Checking Perl Modules
Installed: DBI
Installed: DBD::SQLite
Not Installed: Crypt::SSLeay 
Installed: LWP::UserAgent
..... skipped a few good ones to save bytes here ;-) .....
Installed: XML::LibXML
Not Installed: Embperl 
Bad::: There are 2 missing modules. dotMobile.us will not run correctly until 
this is fixed.
------

Regarding Embperl, I pretty much experienced what Gerhard did (#36). There's a 
bug in the package in one certain file 
(.../test/html/error.htm) having to do with brackets which is leading to fail 
it's installation. Problem is I don't know if the 
closing bracket is missing intentionally due to the nature of the check it 
should perform or not.

I did update cpan. 

The Embperl package is: 
-----
cpan[34]> install Embperl
Running install for module 'Embperl'
Running make for G/GR/GRICHTER/Embperl-2.3.0.tar.gz
:
:
-----

Next up is Crypt::SSLeay. CPAN comes along with messages like:

-----
Running make test
make: *** No rule to make target `test'.  Stop.
  DLAND/Crypt-SSLeay-0.57.tar.gz
  /usr/bin/make test -- NOT OK
//hint// to see the cpan-testers results for installing this module, try:
  reports DLAND/Crypt-SSLeay-0.57.tar.gz
Running make install
  make test had returned bad status, won't install without force
Failed during this command:
 DLAND/Crypt-SSLeay-0.57.tar.gz               : make_test NO

cpan[37]> 
-----

I did try running 'perl -MCrypt::SSLeay -e1' from the command line (as walinsky 
suggested in #37), which returned 'Can't 
locate Crypt/SSLeay.pm in ...... (lots of paths deleted) ...... BEGIN 
failed--compilation aborted.

No idea what to do any further. It is a mandatory package, right? 

I'm using perl v5.10.0 which is the one that ships from Apple with SL 10.6.1.

Cheers, Jan.

Original comment by j...@versteh-ich.net on 3 Nov 2009 at 5:05

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Ok, first off ignore the message about embperl. We were going to use it, but it 
kept
segfaulting so it got dropped.

 Do you have the apple development tools installed ?

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 3 Nov 2009 at 5:10

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
also, try compiling Crypt::SSLeay without using cpan... Just download the 
tarball
from the cpan website and follow (the hopefully included) instructions.

-Rob

Original comment by rob....@gmail.com on 3 Nov 2009 at 5:12

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Hi Rob,
thanks for speedy reply.

#43: yes, I have it installed. Needed it anyway for patching the modules ...

#44: allright, will see how that works.

bye, Jan.

Original comment by j...@versteh-ich.net on 3 Nov 2009 at 5:24

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Hi all,
as suggested by rob I took the SSLeay tarfile and gave it a try. Instructions 
are ok so everything went straight 
forward until the test. To make a long story short: Crypt-SSLeay-0.57, which is 
the most recent stable release in 
cpan, also failed at 'make test'. Quite a lot of sites on the net are telling 
so. The most recent dev release is 
0.57_01 which I took and could compile & test successfully. Hope it'll will go 
for it.

So, I now can move on and will let you know how far I get.

Bye, Jan.

Original comment by j...@versteh-ich.net on 3 Nov 2009 at 6:15

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@jan

please _do_ take notes whilst installing
Someone will need to generate a wiki page similar to LeopardInstallationGuide ( 
http://code.google.com/p/dotmac/wiki/LeopardInstallationGuide ) in the near 
future

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 3 Nov 2009 at 6:16

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Hi walinsky,
good point that I wanted to ask anyway. Since SL is out some time more and more 
users may want to have 
dotmac / mobile.us running on SL (like me). So they will want to have a page 
like the one for leo you mentioned 
above. I will log my actions and of course like to share them with you. We can 
discuss later how we merge them 
into that wiki page. First, I was wondering writing one for myself and perhaps 
publish it on my website. But, if 
quality's fine, best place is right here where everybody would expect it.

Bye, Jan.

Original comment by j...@versteh-ich.net on 3 Nov 2009 at 6:29

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
@jan
if you want 'full' support on (iPhoto) galleries, you'll need to install 
libfreetype and libjpeg (headers) from source 
as well

Original comment by walin...@gmail.com on 3 Nov 2009 at 6:41

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago
Hi walinsky,
thanks for info, but at present I'm not very much interested in iLife, however. 
Maybe later. I'm focussed on easy 
and reliable syncing (addresses, cals, bookmarks, Keyrings). Even the iDisk 
only needs to have a few MB for me.

Bye, Jan.

Original comment by j...@versteh-ich.net on 3 Nov 2009 at 7:27