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Bulgarian Cyrillic is Russian Cyrillic #89

Open GoogleCodeExporter opened 9 years ago

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
What steps will reproduce the problem?
1. Set bulgarian cyrillic in a bulgarian enviroment

What is the expected output? What do you see instead?
Bulgarian cyrillic differs from Russian cyrillic. 
In Noto 1.04 there are only Russian cyrillic characters. Bulgarian cyrillic is 
missing at the corresponding unicodes.

What version of the product are you using? On what operating system?
Version 1.04 uh. OSX 10.9.4

Please provide any additional information below.
See screenshot for a small example of differences between Bulgarian and Russian 
cyrillic.
For more information on Bulgarian Cyrillic see also:
http://www.imagecontext.com/?p=12&l=2&id=74

Original issue reported on code.google.com by thomas.s...@googlemail.com on 22 Jul 2014 at 1:43

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GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago

Original comment by roozbeh@google.com on 22 Jul 2014 at 4:22

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
In Bulgaria both glyph variants are used. I wouldn't say either is more common, 
more known or more Bulgarian. The so called Bulgarian Cyrillic is a font design 
trend that started in the 1960s in Bulgaria and it doesn't make all previous 
(i.e. identical to the Russian glyphs) Cyrillic font usage any less Bulgarian. 
Ideally it would be nice to have both variants as different fonts, e.g. the 
more (internationally) common glyphs in the default fonts (Noto Sans and Noto 
Serif) as they are now and separate fonts Noto Sans Bulgarian and Noto Serif 
Bulgarian with the Bulgarian glyphs instead. Having the default fonts use the 
Bulgarian glyphs for Bulgarian would be just annoying as many people prefer the 
international glyph set. In addition, the Bulgarian glyphs are gaining 
popularity in Russia so having them as a separate font will make it easy for 
people to choose.

Original comment by paveldr...@gmail.com on 5 Aug 2014 at 8:48

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
I think Pavel provides an excellent summary of the situation. I might add: 

1. Using the terms "Russian Cyrillic" vs. "Bulgarian Cyrillic" is a bit of a 
misnomer. The Cyrillic script is used to write more than 50 languages, 
including large languages such as Russian (167M speakers), Ukrainian (36M), 
Uzbek (22M), Serbian, Kazakh and Bulgarian (8M each), Tajiki (4M) Belarussian 
and Kyrgyz (3M each) and many others. At least several countries where Cyrillic 
is a majority script have an active type design community (Russia, Ukraine, 
Serbia, Bulgaria), and the number of Cyrillic-based language users in Central 
Asia also makes it a notable community. 

2. It is true that the current mainstream Cyrillic type design follows the 
model which was initially based on the "civil type" reform by Russian tsar 
Peter I, and was heavily influenced in the 20th century by the predominance of 
the Soviet Union as both a very large market for Cyrillic type and an important 
centre of Cyrillic type design. Instead of "Russian", I would call them 
"traditional" or, as Pavel proposes "international". 

3. It is also true that the so-called "Bulgarian" letterform model has been 
proposed by a group of Bulgarian designers in the 1960s, and has recently been 
gaining new popularity from a group of younger "digital" Bulgarian type 
designers. But I agree with Pavel that this model is potentially useful and of 
interest for more than just Bulgarian language. All these forms are readable 
for any Cyrillic script user (though may seem unorthodox or uncommon). They're 
not tied to any language in particular, and are not the majority of forms used 
in Bulgaria, but are more a stylistic variant, and, in my view, are actually 
useful. But it does seem indeed that in Bulgaria, the number of readers for 
whom these forms are preferred or at least acceptable, is largest among all 
Cyrillic-using countries. 

4. At this point, I think it would make sense to include the Bulgarian forms as 
stylistic alternates or stylistic sets of the primary Cyrillic glyphs. I'm not 
sure if they would make sense as "localized forms" for the Bulgarian (BGR) 
language, as some Bulgarian speakers may actually still prefer the traditional 
forms. 

5. I should add that some of the most recent Windows system fonts (such as 
Calibri Light) do include the Bulgarian forms as "localized forms for 
Bulgarian". So perhaps it would make sense to include them. 

6. I should mention that potentially, there are many more glyphs in Latin and 
Cyrillic glyph sets of Noto where localized variants would be useful. I'm not 
entirely sure if creating separate fonts with all these combinations as default 
would make sense, but it's up to you. I certainly see no harm in releasing 
"Noto Sans BGR" and "Noto Serif BGR" in addition of mapping the Bulgarian forms 
as either localized forms or stylistic sets (using OpenType Layout features 
"locl", "ssXX" and "salt") in the main fonts. 

Best,
Adam Twardoch

Original comment by a...@twardoch.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 2:33

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Hello,

I made a Bulgarian cyrillic copy of Noto Serif. In the attached image you can 
check the differences between Bulgarian and Russian cyrillic.

It will be great if you include the Bulgarian cyrillic in Noto family.

Original comment by ste...@parnarov.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 12:16

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GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Hi Danail,
many thanks for the BGC version of Noto family. 
Definitely appreciation of the Noto family!

About your screenshot, it seems that the upper K is different in BGC? It got 
this nice "round bend", but it’s not marked green. :)

Original comment by thomas.s...@googlemail.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 1:38

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 

Adam, 
your description is not quite right. The so-called Bulgarian forms were not a 
"proposal" in the 1960s, the are a result of a big research about the cyrillic 
script in the Middle Ages and how would the possible cyrillic script 
development look like during the Renaissance and in the modern time. The 
problem was and still is that the reform of Petar I was some kind of quick and 
dirty job how can we make cyrillic printable and more compared to latin script.
So the group leaded by Prof. Vassil Iounchev decided to go back to the origin 
and make a logical simulation.
There are als arguments like using Small Caps with the russian forms looks bad 
because there is no difference between upper-  and lowercase

Original comment by botjonik...@gmail.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 4:23

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Stefan,
 I would like to make a small correction the serifs in the bulgarian И и look also different.

Original comment by botjonik...@gmail.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 4:33

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago

Original comment by botjonik...@gmail.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 4:34

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GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Something important – in Bulgaria we live in a moment of some kind of 
'critical mass' of Bulgarian Cyrillic Model. There is a big hunger for diverse 
fonts, containing the glyphs of the Bulgarian Cyrillic. For most of the 
Bulgarians there is indisputable choice when it comes for choosing Russian or 
Bulgarian model, but we are lacking enough affordable fonts with BG Cyrillic, 
especially for web use. There are also a lot of discussions and plans among the 
State institutions how to emerge from the current situation with a social and 
culturally responsible act. Soon it will go public.

Original comment by kzlatko...@gmail.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 4:40

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
I strongly support the idea of adding Bulgarian Cyrillic to the type family. I 
want to point out, that the idea of the so called "Bulgarian Cyrillic" is 
definitely not a vagary of some bizzare group of Bulgarian type designers, but 
quite the contrary - it is (as sad in the previous post) a product of long and 
careful studies about finding a true minuscule form of Cyrillic. A form that is 
harmonic, logically sound and corresponding to the principles of the minuscule 
as writing system (as evident in Latin typefaces), not just scaled down capital 
letters... 

I will not go into detailed explanations about the origins of Bulgarian 
Cyrillic, nor will I start a discussion Russian vs. Bulgarian form of Cyrillic. 
I just want to mention, that the Bulgarian Cyrillic is of growing popularity 
these days, and is gaining "critical mass" as we speak, so i believe that it is 
sound decision, business-wise, to add such alternates/variant to your family.

I will also refer you to the following resources and type foundries dealing 
with Bulgarian Cyrillic, for further reference:

+A nice overview of Bulgarian and Russian Cyrillic 
http://cyrillicsly.com/

+Bulgaria's biggest type foundry with lots of good examples
https://www.hermessoft.com/

+Some more interesting type designers working with Bulgarian Cyrillic
Kateliev - http://www.kateliev.com/
Gruev - http://moire.info/
Zlatkov - https://www.behance.net/rand0mabstract
Jelev - https://www.behance.net/epixs
....

Original comment by katel...@gmail.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 5:03

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Here are some interesting examples, that i could find easily on the web:
Example of Bulgarian versions of Myriad and Rotis Semi Serif

Original comment by katel...@gmail.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 5:08

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GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Some Specimens of Bulgarian typefaces:
Basil by Kateliev (Granshan 2014 Cyrillic text - special mention award)
Helen by Hermessoft (Helvetica based)
Universum by Hermessoft (Univers based)
...
and etc. see list of sites provided in previous post

Original comment by katel...@gmail.com on 25 Oct 2014 at 5:25

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GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Hi guys,
Тhank you for your commitment.

Thomas - my name is Stefan, not Danail, but anyway :). Yes the K is different 
it’s my mistake I didn’t mark it in green.

Botjonik - feel free to make any corrections that will make it look better. You 
can contact me if you need some help.

Right now I’m working on BGC for Noto Sans and will upload it here when 
it’s ready. Hope you keep the interest. :)

Original comment by ste...@parnarov.com on 26 Oct 2014 at 2:25

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
FWIW, there also seems to be some interesting information on the topic here: 
http://typophile.com/node/34265

Original comment by roozbeh@google.com on 28 Oct 2014 at 5:22

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago

Original comment by roozbeh@google.com on 16 Jan 2015 at 6:02

GoogleCodeExporter commented 9 years ago 
Note that the capital Ф in Bulgarian typefaces often looks differently too. 
Namely, its oval might have all the proportions of the О letter.

Original comment by thorn.mailbox@gmail.com on 9 Feb 2015 at 6:29

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