Games perfect "formulas" is boring

[retrogamer1]

Hello all,

ISSUE: The whole concept of finding the accurate formula to make the perfect games (X% on gameplay balanced with Y% on story, etc etc) through trial and error or by working for 3rd parties. It's boring and repetitive. (I'm calling it formula but I'm sure there is a correct name for it which I don't know)

I'm sure it would be hard to change that competely now, but this is the nearly same concept of all other Game Dev games and it is boring. Because I don't have the patience to go and make 10 games of the same genre just to discover the correct formula again, I find myself writing down or taking a screenshot of the perfect formula for future reference. And they are posted online anyway so everybody can just consult them instead. When the game is restarted, although the it "forgets" the formulas, we have them recorded and we can "magically guess" them and nail the perfect specifications from the beggining. And also, when you want to make a game of a different genre, you have to do this it all over again. It's boring and it could work much better.

MY SOLLUTION is: the knowledge that you have about a game genre and the way it should be made should be based on your employee's knowledge and characteristics (apart from your character, of course). If your team of 3 employees has only experience in RPGs, how can they guess how to create a good RTS? Of course, your character is more experienced and all and contributes as well, but you don't know how to make the perfect game of every genre, right?

This would dictate the kind of games that you would make and also provide something different to consider when hiring staff - You want to make an Adventure game but don't know how? Hire someone who does and bring in his ideas.

This also applies for game themes. Imagine one of your employees has a good idea for a City Building themed game. Or imagine that he has an idea for a theme that has never approached yet... On the other hand, imagine that your team doesn't like Sports and you want to make a football game. How commited do you think that they would be?

And this would also apply for game engine technology. New staff can bring new and breakthrough ideas to research. Some rare ideas can be far ahead of that time period but current technology doesn't allow it -> like 3d modelling, or the dematerialized store. Others can be simple but efficient ideas -> like 2d isometric view.

This idea would create a much better and different experience and would also make the game more replayable.

Thank you and let me know you comments.

[xsellier]

Nice suggestion, thank you for that feedback. However in City Game Studio, your employees can get bored of a specific game genre, so making a game that they don't like will have consequences such as:

• They'll go more often in vacations than usual
• They'll quit (if you are playing in Hard/Insane)
• They won't produce a lot of points

About the formula and the perfect ratio. In City Game Studio, the staff capacities matters. Meaning you need to have a balanced studio in order to make the perfect game. For example, if your studio produces more Design than Development/Polish, then you won't be able to get the above 80% (even if you have the perfect formula). Yo balance your studios you have 2 choices:

• Hire more employees
• Hire a HR. And then manunally set the schedule for your employees.

About the game engine technology, in City Game Studio it won't be useful. Let me explain, unlike the other game development tycoons game, consoles have CPU and GPU capabilities. So if you unlock a 3D 16 bits in the 80s, you won't be able to use it because the 80's consoles won't be able to handle a 3D 16 bits graphics game.

About the specialized employees, there was already another suggestion about it. And I like the idea, ie, hiring a Producer that knows a genre pretty well, and give you more hints about it. (or even unlock a new game genre because you've hired him/her).

Later I'm going to add more abilities to employees, becasue today they are only points producers, I want them to get a bonus when they work on a genre they really like.

[retrogamer1]

Yes, currently staff capacities matter. A bit. But we still choose how the % is distributed and the staff does as told. And since we already know the perfect ratio for all genres (from previous games or by searching online), we mostly only need to repeat that process (yes, there are more factors that influence score, but this is the most important one). For this reason, the game loses most of its replayability factor.

On the other hand, with my suggestion you would need to adapt your way of playing according to your staff characteristics, which would always be different every time.

So what I mean is: give the staff more influence than just being bored when you repeat game genres and Polish/Development/Design. There's a lot to explore in that area and it would add great depth to the game.

About the game engine technology, in City Game Studio it won't be useful. Let me explain, unlike the other game development tycoons game, consoles have CPU and GPU capabilities. So if you unlock a 3D 16 bits in the 80s, you won't be able to use it because the 80's consoles won't be able to handle a 3D 16 bits graphics game.

That is not quite what I meant. Maybe in this case you would need differentiate game engine technology and game characteristics. I meant that staff could bring ideas to incorporate in the games that you make. Feasible ideias like password save games or leaderboards. Ideas that are not technology related. And not only when you hire them, or you would end up just hiring staff for their ideas and then firing them. Staff should constantly give feedback and that should be another characteristic to consider when hiring them. By the way, why do these game characteristics only appear at a certain date? Why can't someone have that idea first and why doesn't it appear available when someone (you or your competitors) first incorporate it into a game?

About the specialized employees, there was already another suggestion about it. And I like the idea, ie, hiring a Producer that knows a genre pretty well, and give you more hints about it. (or even unlock a new game genre because you've hired him/her). Later I'm going to add more abilities to employees, becasue today they are only points producers, I want them to get a bonus when they work on a genre they really like.

That's good but I think it can go much further because favourite genres/themes is too simple and has already been done.

Keep up the good work.

[xsellier]

On the other hand, with my suggestion you would need to adapt your way of playing according to your staff characteristics, which would always be different every time.

I get your point now. It makes sense, and Im going to think seriously about it. But for now, I need to deliver at least the 4 remaining features before reworking the game creation. I know it is going to take a while, but I don't want to rush anything. I'm making the game by iteration, meaning I make a feature then I work on another, after a while I rework the first feature to be more deep and interesting.

Maybe in this case you would need differentiate game engine technology and game characteristics. I meant that staff could bring ideas to incorporate in the games that you make. Feasible ideias like password save games or leaderboards. Ideas that are not technology related. And not only when you hire them, or you would end up just hiring staff for their ideas and then firing them. Staff should constantly give feedback and that should be another characteristic to consider when hiring them.

Just to be sure that I get the idea. For example, if I want to make an Action/Horror game, then I'm going to look for a writter (for example) to write the scenario, and once the game released, I'll fire him/her? Because I like this idea, but it is too raw at the moment. It needs to be refined before being added to the gameplay. (if you have a more refined idea, please share it)

By the way, why do these game characteristics only appear at a certain date? Why can't someone have that idea first and why doesn't it appear available when someone (you or your competitors) first incorporate it into a game?

If you unlock new technology too early, then you won't be able to use it, because of the consoles limitations.

[retrogamer1]

It is hard to transmit these ideas in writing but I'll do my best.

Just to be sure that I get the idea. For example, if I want to make an Action/Horror game, then I'm going to look for a writter (for example) to write the scenario, and once the game released, I'll fire him/her? Because I like this idea, but it is too raw at the moment. It needs to be refined before being added to the gameplay. (if you have a more refined idea, please share it)

I suggested that when you hire staff they bring their ideas as well as their skills. And not only the ideas they bring, you also hire their creativity which is the ability to provide even more ideas as the game progresses.

You understood a different idea. But your interpretation also gives me another good idea: maybe you can outsource certain aspects of game development. Example: You are creating a game all by yourself. You are a good programer and good at game design but you're not good at art and graphics. So you outsource somebody to do the art for the game, improving the final score for graphics. Options could vary according to your reputation and purse and could be either a low-cost option (like your neighbour) or an expensive option (like a professional artist).

If you unlock new technology too early, then you won't be able to use it, because of the consoles limitations.

This is what I mean when I wrote that you need to differenciate game engine technology from game characteristics. Game engine Technology:-> hardware capabilities that will evolve as time progresses. Examples: 8 bit / 16 bit / 32bit hardware, CGA / EGA / VGA graphics, 3d graphics, EAX surround sound, VR technology, etc etc etc

Game characteristics / features: -> games features that are not so hardware-related (some may be) and don't appear or evolve according to the game date but more according to your staff ideas and according to the ideas on games released by all companies. These are features that could appear on any stage of the game and not on fixed dates. Of course, some ideas must be harder to invent / obtain than others. Examples: level editor, achievements, easter eggs, dynamic weather system, day/night cicle, mini games, moral choices, persistent world and consequences, tutorial, skill trees, no loading screens, dynamic ecossystem, etc etc etc etc.

I get your point now. It makes sense, and Im going to think seriously about it. But for now, I need to deliver at least the 4 remaining features before reworking the game creation. I know it is going to take a while, but I don't want to rush anything. I'm making the game by iteration, meaning I make a feature then I work on another, after a while I rework the first feature to be more deep and interesting.

Of course. You're doing a great job and the game is looking really good as it grows.

I have a lot of other ideas and suggestions but I will write them later in another post for discussion.

[soldyne]

would I be allowed to offer a counter suggestion? Would it be possible to save one's genre slider hint progress between play-throughs? other game dev games do this so that the player doesn't have to completely start over on subsequent plays. They have an option to either include saved hints or go in blind. as was mentioned above, the percent slider settings are already posted in guides on Steam anyway so its pretty trivial to just Alt-Tab over, but, one should not be required to use third party guides in order to enjoy a game.

[retrogamer1]

would I be allowed to offer a counter suggestion? Would it be possible to save one's genre slider hint progress between play-throughs? other game dev games do this so that the player doesn't have to completely start over on subsequent plays. They have an option to either include saved hints or go in blind. as was mentioned above, the percent slider settings are already posted in guides on Steam anyway so its pretty trivial to just Alt-Tab over, but, one should not be required to use third party guides in order to enjoy a game.

Please do. I would really like to know everyone else's oppinion regarding this topic.

I wrote that before but in the meatime i've started a new game and noticed that it is now possible to use the hints discovered in previous games. However, I think it makes my suggestion even more relevant because with saved hints you keep using the same ratio every time. And the way I suggested you have to find the right staff in order to get closer to the perfect ration, which will make every new game diferent.

[xsellier]

would I be allowed to offer a counter suggestion? Would it be possible to save one's genre slider hint progress between play-throughs? other game dev games do this so that the player doesn't have to completely start over on subsequent plays. They have an option to either include saved hints or go in blind. as was mentioned above, the percent slider settings are already posted in guides on Steam anyway so its pretty trivial to just Alt-Tab over, but, one should not be required to use third party guides in order to enjoy a game.

I agree and it is already implemented. Just start a new Advanced game, and you'll be able to keep the hints between 2 games. And if you want to develop a game with a new game genre, please try to do some contracts for the same genre, that way you are going to unlock more tips.

[soldyne]

I see the advanced game start now so the option I suggested is already in the game, thank you. perhaps adding another option in advanced start would help alleviate this concern. Add in a randomized slider option. with this active, the "perfect slider setting" for each genre would be randomized at the start of the game and post mortems would reveal the new settings over time (as they do now with the default).
this would only affect the current game, but, would randomize differently for each game. this randomization should not affect the games default slider settings for new games nor should the post-mortems in a randomized game affect the saved hints.

[xsellier]

Randomizing sliders is actually doable. And I might add it to the v0.29.0 just to try it out.

[xsellier]

Randomized sliders are implemented in v0.29.0.

[xsellier]

So it's been a while since we started this conversation. And the game has evolved quite a bit. For example the perfect formula is not enough to make a great game.

Now you need to have a great engine, also to have the perfect match between genre/platform, also between genre/theme, and between platform/targetted audience. Plus, staff capacities matter and also there is a slider randomizer (not 100% random tho, it has to stay balanced).

What do you think about those improvements?

[FolioNov9m]

As you can see, I have many grey sliders, but my game is rock

and vice versa

So imo there are a good random in a reasonable limits