Add "Cash by mail" as a payment option

[mutagenfork]

Bisq advertises privacy as one of the features it offers; to whit:

"Private – no one except trading partners exchange personally identifying data. All personal data is stored locally."

However, this is not true. All of the currently listed payment methods require signing up with a bank or financial institution and sharing with them rather invasive details about one's identity and financial history.

The currently allowed payment methods are also unavailable to anyone who is unbanked, such as an immigrant, or a resident of a country where the banking system is underdeveloped and only available to the wealthy.

Therefore, I'd like to request that bisq add support for payments by "cash in person" and "cash by mail".

Note that this is already an option at several other exchanges/companies:

https://paxful.com/buy-bitcoin/cash-by-mail https://localbitcoins.com/buy-bitcoins-online/cash-by-mail/ https://moneroforcash.com/

[mutagenfork]

Here's how "cash by mail" payments for bitcoin (BTC) are handled on other sites:

• Bitcoin buyer packages cash in a tamper-resistant cash control bag

• Buyer films packaging with the tracking number already affixed to packaging.

• Buy sends the package with USPS tracking.

• Seller films the opening of the package, making sure that the tracking number provided by the sender is visible in the video.

• Seller counts the cash, and authenticates the cash.

• If the unpackaging video shows there is nothing in the package, the cash is short, or the cash is counterfeit then then the seller can lodge a dispute.

• If the cash is short, then the arbitrator can ask the buyer to send more cash to the seller, or refund some of the BTC.

• If there is extra cash, the the arbitrator can ask the seller to send the buyer extra BTC as a separate transaction.

• If the dispute goes to adjudication:

• For the buyer to win, they'd do so on the basis that the unpackaging video showed some evidence of either tampering with the tracking sticker or the package. Or the seller didn't do a proper job of filming the unpackaging.

• For seller to win, they would need to somehow prove that they did not receive the package or it did not contain the contents promised. This is a tall order. Adjudication would be able to see that the tracking number provided showed that the package was delivered (and possibly signed for). The packaging video would also clearly show that the right amount of cash going into the package. In order to succeed with a scam, the seller would need to tamper with the tracking sticker and transfer it to another package and video that as the fake video they would submit to adjudicators--in practice, it's quite a bit of work to make the packaging look similar enough to fool the arbitrators.

• On LocalBitcoins the adjudication standard is that if the cash doesn't make it to the Bitcoin seller for any reason, the default resolution (with rare exceptions) is that the escrow will be resolved in the favor of the seller.

[dan-da]

+1

nice writeup of cash by mail procedures. Maybe you can do one for cash in person also? perhaps should be a separate issue.

[cbeams]

We'll do a short call about 'cash via mail' ideas later today. Anyone is free to join, and @mutagenfork it would be great to have you there!

https://www.google.com/calendar/event?eid=N2RhM3BiZ3BnYTJ1OTk5MDBoNHZkOGQxcDggYWRmaXVpb2txOWp0YWM4dDlrZW9tYzAwYjBAZw

[ManfredKarrer]

I am not sure sure if I can make it (release), but will try.

[cbeams]

Updated zoom call link: https://zoom.us/j/301252266

[cbeams]

@mutagenfork, we're here now: https://zoom.us/j/301252266

[dscotese]

I'm glad this issue is still open. I left a comment in #1110 about arbitration. I think that arbitration is wonderful even if it fails sometimes. The trick is to positively identify an arbiter (sign stuff with the private key of an address from which you send some sort of bond or something?) so that their reputation can follow them. I also would like to see a cash by mail option in BISQ.

[ripcurlx]

@alfsbs Do you think this payment method is something we should consider?

[aejontargaryen]

bitcoin does have great benefit to the unbanked; and vice versa i bought my first bitcoin through paxful. i know that gift cards starts going a bit 'out there' but could it work to start using only certain prepaid debit cards? not charging the card but, exchanging its ownership code..? The back and forth style exchange process of verifying card number etc is very similar to the bisq trade protocol. did not mean to butt-in . just saw similarities.

[dscotese]

Demand for cash by mail might go up quite a bit because localbitcoins just announced that they will be disabling all cash by mail ads on Dec. 27th. There is an effort to stop them.

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[dmp1ce]

Another exchange, Paxful, is adding KYC steps in order to trade local and by mail cash trades. Even if Bisq only allowed cash trades as a way to exchange contact information securely, I think it would be a valuable feature.

Currently, the way local cash trades is implemented, I only use Bisq to share contact information securely because it is too much of a hassle to complete local trades which require a laptop.

I think this feature should be revisited as more and more centralized exchanges are regulated.

[dan-da]

+1 for in-person trades to be contact info only. Or at least have it as an option. Basically it would work as present, but without the multi-sig escrow. Then people might actually use it....

[dave2014btc]

Hello, i am trader on localbitcoins and paxful. done just over 1000 cash by mail trade, had about 5 disputed in the whole time. thats about 0.5% of trades. i think this method of payment needs to be added. the only reason i do not use bisq is i only trade with cash in person or mail and they is not enough incentive to use bisq yet with my methods. once it accepts cash by mail i would more than likely direct customers from other websites as i like the idea of a decentralised exchange. im just surprised its not already implemented as less risk than in person.

[crocket]

@dave2014btc Can you teach us how to do mail-by-cash tranasactions anonymously? I'm trying to use mail-by-cash deals on localmonero. But, I have never done cash deals with other people.

I imagine that I could do so pseudonomously if I bought and installed password-protected delivery storage in my apartment where many people live. When I buy cash with XMR, I would just have cash delivered to the storage box which is shared with my neighbors.

If I have cash delivered to my home address, my opponent learns my home address. I imagine that in the near future, governments may set up cash-by-mail traps on localmonero to punish random suckers who want to buy XMR without leaving traces in the system.

[dave2014btc]

I do not try to do it anonymously , but I use po box to protect myself from bad actors. If someone really wanted they could buy xmr from you and send package with a tracker hidden inside the cardboard on the box and follow it exactly to you. But your idea sounds decent but wouldn't be surprised if someone ripped it off the wall knowing they was cash in it. Best way to use po box costs a bit but saves you from most bad actors. Btw I'm always buying BTC and crypto for cash in mail.

On Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 11:01 crocket, notifications@github.com wrote:

@dave2014btc https://github.com/dave2014btc Can you teach us how to do mail-by-cash tranasactions anonymously? I'm trying to use mail-by-cash deals on localmonero. But, I have never done cash deals with other people.

I imagine that I could do so pseudonomously if I bought and installed password-protected delivery storage in my apartment where many people live. When I buy cash with XMR, I would just have cash delivered to the storage box which is shared with my neighbors.

If I have cash delivered to my home address, my opponent learns my home address. I imagine that governments may set up cash-by-mail traps on localmonero to punish random suckers who want to buy XMR without leaving traces in the system.

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/issues/1101#issuecomment-701292114, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AN3D2GRIY4SLVLPO5UDTKWDSIL6YHANCNFSM4EIZPVHA .

[crocket]

@dave2014btc A tracker is unlikely to be used but is still physically possible. How is post office box any different except that it's more difficult to rip off such a box and there are CCTVs around it?

Why do you always buy cryptocurrencies by cash in mail unless you are trying to buy cryptocurrencies privately?

Do you have any better idea for private transactions?

[dave2014btc]

The po box at the post office is not anonymous , also it's not a physically secure box just a box in a room behind the counter. They are cameras if someone was to take something but I always ask people to send special delivery as you can insure cash in the u.k. but it means I don't have to give my address to random people and it also means that I can collect my mail at 8am even tho it won't be delivered till 1pm also untracked mail seems to arrive a day faster. They are pros and cons. Even police or official people will need a warrant of some sort to get my information from the post office. I have other ideas on how you could do it but just adds more risk on money being lost.

On Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 12:23 crocket, notifications@github.com wrote:

@dave2014btc https://github.com/dave2014btc A tracker is unlikely to be used but is still physically possible. How is post office box any different except that it's more difficult to rip off such a box and there are CCTVs around it?

Do you have any better idea?

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/issues/1101#issuecomment-701329095, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AN3D2GUS6FXHHAPZ3SV7NE3SIMIMNANCNFSM4EIZPVHA .

[crocket]

@dave2014btc I want to hear your ideas. Perhaps, we can develop this idea somewhere else.

I specifically don't want governments and corporations to be able to trace my transactions. I also don't want whom I make deals with to know my address. I want privacy.

By the way, you can detect trackers by using various EMF meters. If it emits wireless signal, EMF meters can detect electromagnetic frequencies. Trackers have to emit strong wireless signals if they want to communicate with nearby cell towers.

[ripcurlx]

Reopening as there is still an ongoing discussion.

[dscotese]

I have a customer who uses the address of Gun Owners of America as the return address on what he sends me. He prefers to forfeit his money rather than anyone knowing his actual address. I am unable to send him information except through the encrypted channels he has chosen to use. He found me because of a website, not a DEX like Bisq. I'd prefer my reputation to be maintained in a decentralized way. It is, to some extent, but it is "centered" on a few websites. I have an account on keybase too (so it's one of them), and I like the network their "follow" feature creates.

Anyway, what is needed is the set of questions a Cash By Mail (CBM) advertiser needs to answer ("Is the advertiser buying or selling?", "(if selling) Where does the buyer send cash?", "(if buying) What's the max and min that you can send, or what amounts will you buy? What shipping methods can you use?"

Another issue is how disputes will be resolved. I feel that I am prepared to help two parties resolve a dispute in a CBM trade, but I know that a scammer can always blame the carrier and we don't yet have any standard method of handling that.

Lastly, we don't need to protect users. We can simply point out that "No one who worked on the code or took part in the discussions has been willing to guarantee that the CBM payment option is safe. We all expect only the most seasoned and well behaved traders (and those who trade with them) to use the method with a high degree of success. We encourage everyone else to try it with enough to pay for any lessons you learn along the way." I believe this flies in the face of a lot of philosophies and outlooks on life, but I think a deep and honest look at how humans learn can resolve those differences. Let's get back to trying stuff and learning!

[wiz]

With the USPMO payment method, we have the USPS to act as a trustworthy and neutral third party that can provide public verification for mediators / arbitrators in the event of a dispute in regards to the shipment being delivered and the money order cashed, not to mention a 20 year prison sentence for mail fraud, so the "chargeback risk" is mitigated.

With a "cash by mail" payment method, there is no way to resolve a trade dispute, since as a mediator I would have no way to know if a scammer didn't simply send an empty envelope to the seller.

[crocket]

@wiz That's why both sender and receiver have to film the entire shipping or unboxing process in one cut. If you film the entire shipping process in one cut and leave a unique mark inside the envelope, you are protected.

I recommend GoPro action cam mounted on a chest mount for filming the shipping or unboxing process in one cut.

[crocket]

@dscotese When you sell XMR for cash in a cash-by-mail deal, you have to specify a valid address. If you want to hide your home address, you need to acquire another address without revealing your identity. That's tricky.

[dscotese]

@crocket I see your point. It's definitely not a reason to avoid offering this payment method.

@wiz Are you able to decline mediating a trade with a particular payment method? Can't you decline to take on any particular mediating job? For those who do have a way to do it, the only thing missing is the opportunity, and resolving this issue would fix that.

[wiz]

IMO the Mediators and Arbitrators don't really want to get in the situation where they need to make a judgement call based on who they think the scammer is based on evidence that can be manipulated, for one thing it creates a financial incentive for people to spend time crafting photoshopped or deep faked videos whatever you want to call it, but more importantly there should always be a clean cut way for anyone to verify what happened in a trade dispute, and if not, the payment method isn't secure and shouldn't be added to Bisq. All the secure fiat payment methods rely on a trusted third party like the post office or a bank. If it's cash in the mail there is no TTP so it's whoever can photoshop a video better to trick the arbitrator.

[ghost]

Maybe advanced users could choose to have the option to trade without support. I've mentioned this idea before:

Bisq should enable traders to negotiate the disputed payout between themselves. Since they are the sole owners of the 2-2 multisig they could do this anyway, but there exist no tools to let then collaborate in such a way.

Setting high security deposits should be enough incentive to complete the trade. If they don't both sign the multisig payout then bisq gets a donation. Knowing it is a risky option they would likely begin with a small trade amount.

[wiz]

Maybe advanced users could choose to have the option to trade without support.

No, the game theory of a 2 of 2 multisig doesn't work without dispute resolution. For example if I am the buyer I can just refuse to make payment and refuse to sign any payout from the multisig that doesn't give 50% to me. Since you have more funds in the transaction than I do, you have no choice but to agree or lose 100% so this is a profitable ransom attack for the buyer.

The only payment method that works like how you describe is Face to Face because it's a unique situation where both traders are physically in the same room, so traders can resolve their own disputes by calling the police or using local court system as the arbitrator or whatever they want.

[crocket]

For now, it's not possible to fake one-cut video evidence. Multi-cut video evidences can be manipulated.

If you film the entire shipping or unboxing process in one cut with an action cam, you are safe for now.

Without ready access to a really advanced artificial intelligence that can fake videos, you can't fake video evidences. Such an AI doesn't exist, yet.

For now, the tricky part is acquiring an anonymous/pseudonomous proxy address for cash-by-mail deals.

[dmp1ce]

I agree with providing the trade option with NO moderator support. HIGH RISK warnings should be displayed for the trade.

Senders of the cash can mitigate the risk by knowing the address/recipient and sending in multiple smaller transactions. Receivers really have little transaction risk, but they do give information about their address and personal name.

I don't understand the ransom attack @wiz. Why can't the security deposit be equal for both sides? Isn't it only a profitable attack if the majority of sellers give into the ransom.

[crocket]

@dmp1ce Against surveillance teams who are looking to punish random people and discourage people from using cryptocurrency, revealing your address and your name is unwise. What if your government doesn't want you to obtain cryptocurrencies through cash-by-mail deals? They are already pressuring centralized exchanges into abandoning cash-by-mail deals.

If governments are determined to punish cash by mail deals by spending a lot of tax money, they can pull ransom attacks.

They can launch wars against unprotected cryptocurrency users. They understand wars cost a lot of money. They launched war on terrorism and war on drug. Why can they not launch war on money laundering or state that terrorists are using cash-by-mail deals to obtain cryptocurrencies anonymously? In this case, there is no CIA-funded terrorist boogeyman. People like us are painted as terrorists and money launderers. They will even create terrorist boogeymen on mainstream media if they need to. Someday, they will focus their firepower on cryptocurrency users.

They don't want money because they can print money out of nothing. They just need excuses to print more money. They want control over people. Surveillance is the key to control.

Censorship resistance is a tough goal. Poor people need protection from governments as well as from random fraudsters.

[crocket]

@mutagenfork I think your cash by mail protocol is a solid process. This should be the standard of cash-by-mail deals on bisq although those deals will have to be backed up by 2-of-3 multisig wallets.

All cash-by-mail dealers should mount action cams on their bodies by default.

Do we need anything else other than developer approval?

[crocket]

I realized that you can route cash through delivery forwarders. There are private companies that forward delivery boxes. You have to pay for delivery fee twice and their handling fee which is cheap. Sending cash by delivery is also an option because delivery is cheap in my country.

[pazza83]

Referred here via #4757

Just trying to understand what would happen in the following scenarios as not everyone has access to a secure mail box or the same options for couriers:

• Bitcoin seller places offer to Sell 0.5 BTC on Bisq via 'cash in mail'
• Bitcoin buyer takes offer and sends the associated fiat amount for the BTC as per protocol documented above by @mutagenfork
• Buyer sends fiat cash packaged in a tamper-resistant cash control bag via Courier
• Courier firm arrives at sellers address (house, apartment, business etc)
• Seller is not present at address so package is left at what the courier deems to be a secure / convenient location, or gets it signed by anyone else at the address eg receptionist
• Seller collects package completes trade

But what if the following happens:

1. Seller never gets package, or
2. Seller gets package from receptionist and pretends they never received it.
3. Seller gets package from convenient location porch, door step, shared mailbox, behind car etc and pretends they never received it.

In all these problem instances I would assume that the seller would be successful in mediation / arbitration and the buyer would have to take it up with the courier company and claim through the insurance offered if the courier firm could not provide proof of delivery to the seller or the sellers address?

Is it a case of Buyer Beware and for them to ensure they have adequate insurance to cover any losses?

Also with so many courier companies having different terms and conditions that would potentially affect the trading protocol. Eg FedEx does not allow cash to be sent, and specifically states it is not liable for any loss of cash. USPS, I am less familiar with, It appears that they offer a 'Registered Mail' service insured up to $50,000. This service appears to direct delivery only to the addressee (or addressee's authorized agent). This would theoretically avoid the issues above. Not sure how they verify the person they are delivering to is the addressee? Just a signature? A signature seems less secure than an identify check. A scammer just deny it was them that signed for the package.

[crocket]

@pazza83 If the record says it was delivered, the arbitrator may just send bitcoin to the bitcoin buyer. Also, people use cash-by-mail deals because they want privacy. If they value privacy, they wouldn't want any investigation on their activities. If a bitcoin seller pretended the cash did not arrive, the seller would get unwanted attention from agencies.

[pazza83]

@crocket thanks, that might put some seller's off using it.

Where I live there is a good 5% when ordering something the courier will say it has been delivered when it hasn't! Maybe it is just my experience of receiving items from delivery drivers that are in a hurry to get to their next job and can't find anywhere suitable to park. Packages can be marked as delivered when they have not been.

If confirmed delivery on it's own is enough evidence to assess if the trade protocol was adhered to. What would stop an unscrupulous trader sending empty boxes to multiple peers in the hope they get marked as delivered and their counterparty does not have the package or has not taken video evidence of opening the package to prove otherwise.

The complication I see if that their are effectively 2 trade protocols in place.

Buyer to Seller through Bisq (both parties have equal control) Buyer to Seller via Courier (buyer has the control of which courier to use and what insurance to purchase, seller has no control)

It would not be possible for the seller of BTC to be responsible for the buyer's choice of courier / insurance. It would also be hard to standardize this choice unless defining a particular country due to regional variations in couriers.

As the buyer has control of both what courier service to use and how best to insure themselves I think the risk for ensuring package is delivered should be the BTC buyer's.

[dmp1ce]

The primary way Bisq could help Cash in Mail traders is by discovery. Cash in Mail deals are almost always based on trust, building up from small trades to start. I feel the same way about Face to Face local trades.

Just having a matching system for these Cash in Mail and Face to Face local trades would be very helpful IMHO. Just a glorified secure chatting service, which is capable of walking a trader through a risky trade, warning them of the potential hazards.

[crocket]

@pazza83 I think the person who has tighter video evidence should win....

[dscotese]

This discussion is available to anyone who wants to argue that there ought not to be a "Cash by Mail" option. I imagine there are some people considering doing exactly that, and I haven't seen any good reason to agree with them.

It may be the case that users of BISQ expect BISQ development to include instructions for mediators that allow them to perform their duties mindlessly, but I submit that such users can be safely ignored. I am willing to mediate in a cash by mail trade, and I may follow @crocket's suggestion of awarding whoever has better video evidence. That's a good first strategy, but in my experience, a cheater usually outs himself very quickly without realizing it, so some actual mediation and consideration is due.

The payment method should be available already, and @mutagenfork's protocol seems the way to do it. What's needed? Someone to actually submit code?

[crocket]

but in my experience, a cheater usually outs himself very quickly without realizing it

Where have you had experiences? What experiences?

[crocket]

I think floating prices should be implemented if they haven't been already. Localmonero supports floating prices because cash-by-mail deals happen over days. Floating prices protect you from high volatility.

[dscotese]

I was trading on LBC from 2012 till they stopped CBM ads, and have been trading CBM ever since on Paxful and Agoradesk. I publish my number and am in several telegram groups, so I get many unsolicited messages and I'm constantly guiding the senders to reveal their level of honesty without realizing they are doing so.

Whether or not a CBM ad uses a floating price is a different issue from whether or not CBM ads should be available. I agree that it's a good option. If adding it slows down the availability of the method itself, I would like to see it postponed until the CBM method is available.

[crocket]

@dscotese Is it desirable for you to be contacted before a cash-by-mail deal begins?

[dscotese]

@dscotese Is it desirable for you to be contacted before a cash-by-mail deal begins?

No but I do like when people contact me because my advertisement doesn't answer all their questions, so that I can update it.

Many new buyers want to contact me before they start a CBM trade, so from their perspective, the answer is yes.

[crocket]

@dscotese While I agree that being contacted before a deal is good, I don't like revealing my cell number or my telegram account. Doing so compromises privacy. A cell phone is literally designed to keep you in a digital cell. It's central to building digital prison.

[ghost]

As a user wanting to build a non-KYC stack, I prefer the CBM scenario over any method that involves banks or fintech. It would be useful in countries that do not offer the USPSMO payment method. I would avoid trading with a lot of different counterparties, preferring one a few reliable ones. My strategy would be to start with a small trade and work higher as trust is built. In short, I would use this payment method, in fact I already plan to use it on another platform if it is not provided on Bisq.

[pazza83]

Thanks for all the great feedback.

From your feedback it appears 'cash by mail' buyers would take additional precautions when buying by mail, mainly looking to establish a relationship with a regular seller.

Just having a matching system for these Cash in Mail and Face to Face local trades would be very helpful IMHO. Just a glorified secure chatting service, which is capable of walking a trader through a risky trade, warning them of the potential hazards.

I like the @dmp1ce's idea Bisq being utalized for being a matching system. It seems reasonable to assume if both parties used Bisq to establish their trading relationship for their first trade they would continue to do so for future trades.

It may be the case that users of BISQ expect BISQ development to include instructions for mediators that allow them to perform their duties mindlessly, but I submit that such users can be safely ignored. I am willing to mediate in a cash by mail trade, and I may follow @crocket's suggestion of awarding whoever has better video evidence.

Thanks @dscotese for your comments. I have no experience of mediation other than being a trader on the other end of the process. I assume the mediators want to utilize payment methods that can be verified. Cash in mail brings additional complications to the verification process. Please can you advise how you would go about mediating the example I provided above: https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/issues/1101#issuecomment-723430354

[pazza83]

As a user wanting to build a non-KYC stack, I prefer the CBM scenario over any method that involves banks or fintech. It would be useful in countries that do not offer the USPSMO payment method. I would avoid trading with a lot of different counterparties, preferring one a few reliable ones. My strategy would be to start with a small trade and work higher as trust is built. In short, I would use this payment method, in fact I already plan to use it on another platform if it is not provided on Bisq.

@jmacxx This sounds sensible. Doing it this way would mean that you would decrease risks of any trades going wrong. If all users did this on Bisq CBM would be a great addition.

[pazza83]

I was trading on LBC from 2012 till they stopped CBM ads, and have been trading CBM ever since on Paxful and Agoradesk. I publish my number and am in several telegram groups, so I get many unsolicited messages and I'm constantly guiding the senders to reveal their level of honesty without realizing they are doing so.

@dscotese thanks for sharing this. Sounds like you have built up relationships with people that want to use CBM. In your experience was scammers utilizing CBM an issue with the other platforms? What made LBC stop traders advertising CBM offers?