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bisq-network / compensation

@bisq-network contributor compensation requests
https://github.com/bisq-network/docs/tree/master/dao/phase-zero#how-to-request-compensation
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For August 2018 #115

Closed ghost closed 6 years ago

ghost commented 6 years ago

Summary

Specify the total amount of BSQ you are requesting, and the BSQ address that amount should be paid to:

This compensation request :

Some tasks are a bit new. I did my best for fair single evaluations. Apart from single evaluations, I have also a global evaluation goal, which is simply to have compensation request inline with time spent. This month (like june and july), my time spent on the Bisq project was full time.

Contributions delivered

Roles performed

Substantive reports

Nothing to report

Other points

Contributions in progress

alexej996 commented 6 years ago

Hey @HarryMacfinned, I am not sure if we should value activity on reddit so much.

To some extent we never really pushed for much marketing, we kinda just always found that word of mouth and honest recommendations by regular users is the best approach for now. Furthermore, it might even cloud people's judgement a bit, when they see that Bisq is pushing to be advertised so much across reddit, instead of focusing on providing the best service possible.

I am not saying that your activity on reddit is necessarily bad for Bisq, no one can know that for sure I guess. But I am just saying that by accepting this compensation request, we are actively supporting and encouraging it. Compensation request are retroactive, so we can only control what the DAO does by accepting/rejecting work that is already done.

I think it is important for us to feel comfortable with rejecting compensation requests and not to experience it as something personal, because this is the way that we decide on what DAO does. I will have to vote against this one, as I personally think that it is best for Bisq that we don't spend so much on paid activity on reddit.

ManfredKarrer commented 6 years ago

@alexej996 @HarryMacfinned Maybe you could start a discussion what and in which direction the activity on Reddit should go. I share the concern of @alexej996 but at the same time appreciate that there is more activity on Reddit (which has been pretty dead the last year). I personally don't value Reddit a lot but I know that there is still a big community attached to it. I would see it in relation to Twitter (or in future Mastodon) less relevant for Bisq. So our expenses in that should reflect that as well. I think we should focus on support in those platforms and try to keep anything what smells like PR low. Some communities like Monero are super sensitive to that (and right by being so).

ghost commented 6 years ago

Thanks Alexej and Manfred for your comments.

This is a first answer to some points raised by Alexej.

I am not sure if we should value activity on reddit so much. To some extent we never really pushed for much marketing, we kinda just always found that word of mouth and honest recommendations by regular users is the best approach for now.

atm, concretely, on the github, the ambassador task is still tagged as "help wanted" (I verified it one minute ago -> https://github.com/bisq-network/roles/issues/35 ), and reddit is still mentionned :

Ambassador work ranges from answering questions about Bisq on Reddit to giving talks about Bisq at conferences and anything in between.

This is just to say that my work on reddit is absolutely not an isolated initiative from myself (I even didn't want to jump at reddit at first) Stakeholders may very well change their minds about ambassador "help wanted", but if it is the case then we should not ask for "help wanted" if no help is wanted. This would be just time lost for all parts.

I have no idea about the possible % of fake accounts on reddit, but when I see that https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/ displays 916k subscriptions, https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/ 186K subscriptions, etc, Bitcoin is Bisq's only base currency. I cannot imagine there are no possible Bisq customers there.

Furthermore, it might even cloud people's judgement a bit, when they see that Bisq is pushing to be advertised so much across reddit, instead of focusing on providing the best service possible.

This is just not the case. atm, I'm posting daily on r/bisq only (and those posts get >100 views every day). For the rest, I subscribed to ~60 subreddits, and I crosspost on average on 4 subreddits per day. So each subreddit gets actually ~1 xpost/week or less. Maybe sometimes 2 xpost/weeks due to error because I operate at hand. This is very very far from spam. And apart from the first days where I made some mistake, I didn't get any "stop spam" return since weeks. If anything, even if posting at reddit continues at the same rythm, it will imo still be far from enough.

The Dieter_von_Bisq account got also >1000 upvotes for posts. And >100 upvotes for comments. In one month. This is not a sign that readers fell annoyed. I got even some "thanks" comments.

From the poster's side, yes, it is indeed "so much". From the recipients side, subreddits with >10.000 readers, it is a small drop in the sea.

I am not saying that your activity on reddit is necessarily bad for Bisq, no one can know that for sure I guess.

Several pseudos said that they will try or retry Bisq. And some did. Concretely this is converting BSQs (actual value unknown) to trades with real fees. It's absolutely not tremendous, and even some of those people may prove being not very interesting customers. But there are definitely potential Bisq customers there.

But I am just saying that by accepting this compensation request, we are actively supporting and encouraging it. Compensation request are retroactive, so we can only control what the DAO does by accepting/rejecting work that is already done. I think it is important for us to feel comfortable with rejecting compensation requests and not to experience it as something personal, because this is the way that we decide on what DAO does.

I agree definitely with this way of proceeding. And I know we can resubmit modified compensation request.

Every stakeholder questionning himself about spending BSQ for marketing may have a look on this open-source list : A comprehensive list of decentralized exchanges (DEX) : https://distribuyed.github.io/index/ This list is several hundreds items long. Many are fakes. Many are already dead. Many will not go very far. But for sure Bisq is not alone in the race. It's one thing to have a good product (which is the case imo), it's another thing to have the product known by the customers.

This month I jumped several times on comments after questions about "name me a DEX ?", "name me an exchange without KYC/AML ?". And some answers just naming "Bisq", but with nothing more. In some case it will suffice. In other cases, this will not suffice.

For clarity, I will also add that on a personal POV, I'm not especially interested about marketing on reddit (or elsewhere). Even with positive vote, I don't think I'll do this job for 36 months. (The idea being that, once a critical customer mass is reached (which I'm not sure is the case today), the marketing will run alone)

Actually, I jumped in reddit because I felt it is a plus for Bisq, because I saw questions about Bisq on reddit without answer, because ambassador role was expressly asked, and because Bisq's founder encourages me after the 1st week, because Bisq has actually little presence on several great medias (bitcointalk, twitter, reddit). I remind also that I did a short 1st trial week on the last week of july. And I asked 700 BSQ for this week. In order to see how it did, and how the stakeholders feel it. -> https://github.com/bisq-network/roles/issues/35#issuecomment-409177403 And I got 0 remark for this july compensation request. And I got 0 remark in august concerning my very visible work on reddit.

I may complete this answer with other relevant points, but I think I'll stop here for now. It's long enough ;-) Before adding another wall of text, I can also simply answer to other possible questions.

ManfredKarrer commented 6 years ago

@HarryMacfinned I highly appreciate it that you are active on Reddit and I agree that it is a platform relevant for Bisq. I think what @alexej996 concern is that we are spending proportionally maybe too much for that platform and that we have to take care that activity there is not interpreted as "marketing". I know you take care of that and there is no clear black/white here and interpretations might vary. To focus on answering questions and providing support is for sure the safest way to not get into PR-land. Maybe we should define what the DAO stakeholders see a reasonable budget we want to spend on Reddit? The 3500 you suggest for upcoming months is probably not far away from a reasonable target, but others might have other opinions. My personal target would be probably a bit lower, around 2500 BSQ. But no strong opinion here... Estimations of others are welcome...

ghost commented 6 years ago

1/ I agree it's a good idea to fix a budget, even approximately, for things we want to be done. And then candidate contributors know they should fit their work inside the envelope. [I will try to push for this (usual) practice of budgetizing things for other roles/tasks, eg for nodes.]

2/ Concerning reddit, I forgot to give this link : https://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/US In US reddit is atm on rank 5 (and was rank 3 in may 2018). Compared to other places, reddit is certainly among the best places for the quality of comments (even if there is of course also trolls and bullshit).

3/ If we vote for instance on a marketing budget proposal, I think we could vote for several channels. For my part, I see at least 4 channels on which Bisq should be present : twitter, bitcointalk, youtube, reddit. I'm sure I'm missing important channels. If Bisq is for any reason less present on some channels, I don't find absurd to push stronger on others.

Anyway, I think Bisq has to exhibit its vitality on some external channels (not just our own internal github/slack/forum).

2 additionnal general remarks on budget/numbers :

1/ For the numbers themselves, my feeling is that, atm, it's interesting to convert fuzzy BSQs in real growth. (Growth coming from all tasks : developers work, design, good docs, good network, marketing, etc) I'm a bit worried about how long the slot for Bisq taking off can last ? certainly not indefinitely. Bisq must not consume it's BSQ fuel too fast, but on the other hand if it doesn't take off but we still have BSQ fuel left ... this will be of few comfort.

atm Bisq has linear growing + volatility. Good months and less good months. I wonder if this linear growing + word of mouth is enough to drag Bisq out of the danger zone in time ? If we could help the natural way, it wouldn't hurt.

As a user I'm happy seing so much projects poping up. As a specific project contributor, I think "what if one neighbour project takes off a bit faster, and eats our customer basis ?".

2/ For the numbers, as said in another discussion, we can also keep in mind that, with the proposals and with the monthly vote, we can put the numbers at 0 at any moment. If some stakeholders notices that a role is not done appropriately, the point can be discussed at any moment, and we can quite rapidly vote a proposal saying: "Please, stop this task".

ripcurlx commented 6 years ago

Closing as complete, see https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/107#issuecomment-418244359

ManfredKarrer commented 6 years ago

@HarryMacfinned Can you start some discussion about the BSQ value the stakeholders are willing to support for promoting Bisq on Reddit? In the recent voting round I was the only one who accepted your request and a few rejected it, so it would be good to get to a more solid consensus regarding that topic. Maybe ping those who rejected to get their opinions...

ghost commented 6 years ago

@ManfredKarrer and @all

It was already my intent to take the stakeholders vote in account.

Last month, I requested compensation for a significant amount, because it was for a big work, and it seemed thus fair to me. Since this did provoke -1 votes and only one +1 vote (and there are so many other things to do) :

So I think this will bring the associated comp. request in the 2500-3000 BSQ zone. imo this should be considered as a monthly budget for reddit, and for my part I'll be perfectly happy if such budget would be shared between several animators or even if someboby else takes entirely the role. Other Bisq people have already a reddit account and use it timely.

As I already told it above, I'm not specially interested on the reddit animator role. I did it because reddit is obviously a growth and liquidity deposit for Bisq, and I find it a pitty and a waste seing this channel without animation. Ignoring reddit would imo be a costful error. We shouldn't do it.

If 2500-3000 BSQ is still considered as too much for the reddit animation as I do it atm, it will indeed be kind from stakeholders and appreciated to tell it here before the next vote.

ManfredKarrer commented 6 years ago

Thanks @HarryMacfinned for the reply.

I would appreciate if those who rejected or voted neutral post what they think is appropriate what we should spend per month on Reddit activities.

I will not vote on the next request here to leave more influence to the other contributors. I just did not want to "downvote" the last request as it was not sufficiently discussed. We are all in a learning phase how to run the DAO and to start earlier to discuss to find consensus might be a good way to deal with it.

alexej996 commented 6 years ago

I think 2500-3000 is more reasonable, but again, this is just my opinion. I personally voted against this one and I assume neutral votes are mostly just sticking to the previous agreement to not vote on things that you are not very familiar with.

Since this compensation request was accepted, we can simply vote in future with this budget in mind. As long as these posts don't become something that could be considered as aggressive marketing (creating off-topic posts just to advertise), I think it would be fine to spend less than 3000 for reddit advertisement.

cbeams commented 6 years ago

When I first began itemizing the Twitter Admin role in June, I argued for 1,500 BSQ per month for carrying out those duties at the level that I do. I don't have exact numbers about on how much time I spend there, but on a typical month, it's many hours spent monitoring, reading and responding what others write about Bisq, carefully crafting Tweets, following up on engagement with those tweets to see how they perform, paying close attention to the wider "crypto Twitter / Bitcoin Twitter space" and so forth. I would argue Twitter is our most important communication channel with current and potential users. On normal months where I'm fully available for the work (the last couple have been exceptions), we're reaching in excess of 1M people with our efforts there, and you can see these stats in my monthly reports on the role.

I have a hard time seeing how our efforts in r/Bitcoin and r/Bisq subreddits exceed the value of our Twitter efforts by 3x (the 4500 BSQ originally requested above), or even 2x (~2500–3000 BSQ, as suggested by @alexej996 above). It could be that I've dramatically underestimated the value of my Twitter efforts and should ask much more for them; it could be that I am underestimating the importance and value of our Reddit efforts; or it could be that @HarryMacfinned has overestimated the value of the latter and should ask for fewer BSQ.

I do not pay close attention to our efforts on Reddit, nor have I seen any quantifiable / objective information about the reach and effectiveness of those efforts. I'm happy to be convinced that they are so valuable, but based on what I understand thus far, and according to my gut instincts about the whole situation, I'd say 3K BSQ is too much. My sanity check on this sort of stuff goes as follows: given our working valuation of 1 BSQ == 1 USD, would I pay someone 3000 USD month to carry out the activities we see on Reddit? I would unquestionably pay someone 1500 USD / month to carry out the activities we see on Twitter. Without tooting my own horn too much, I would pay a lot more. It is now essentially a professionally managed account, we've tripled our follower count since December 2017 (from ~5K to ~15K) and increased our average monthly impressions by more than 10x in the same time range (from ~100K/mo to 1M/mo) in the same amount of time. Those are the sort of numbers that I think a team would be hard pressed to produce without an experienced Twitter account manager dedicating themselves to the task. Even then you probably wouldn't produce the results, because you need the person writing the tweets to be deeply connected to the domain, know the audience, etc. Perhaps my 1500/mo figure is off by a wide margin after all. I'd like to hear the opinion of other stakeholders about how much they think our Twitter account management is worth per month.

The last paragraph is a bit of a ramble, please forgive that, but it does capture my (clearly somewhat conflicted) thoughts on this matter. Thanks.

ghost commented 6 years ago

I don't have exact numbers about on how much time I spend there, but on a typical month, it's many hours spent monitoring, reading and responding what others write about Bisq, you need the person writing the tweets to be deeply connected to the domain, know the audience, etc.

On a typical month, it's exactly the same on reddit. But reddit's search engine is unfortunately not very powerful and only searches thru the titles. To search for "Bisq" in a subreddit, you have to search in that subreddit. I personnaly have a 1500 followers twitter account since several years. I'm not caring enough on this account the last year, but this helps me having a rather good idea on the twitter/reddit comparison.

we're reaching in excess of 1M people with our efforts there, and you can see these stats in my monthly reports on the role.

Concerning the stats on reddit, I don't know atm about tools which may give a synthetic view as with twitter stats. The best I'm aware atm, are the stats as given in a poster's profile. https://www.reddit.com/user/Dieter_von_Bisq But those stats say unfortunately nothing directly about the views. You must click each post, xpost, comment to see the views. The best easy synthetic proxy we may have concerning the views, are the upvotes/downvotes, and the comments, which are correlated to the views. atm, downvotes are less then 1%, unseable. (Btw, it can be pointed that the stats as given by twitter (prints) are not everywhere taken as 100% trustful)

On another point, when I begin with reddit on july 22th, the Bisq presence on reddit was (and still is) hardly comparable to the presence on twitter. I presume that probably both channels didn't got the same care. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to argue about actual low stats on a channel (due to less care) as a good reason to not be active on the channel.

I have a hard time seeing how our efforts in r/Bitcoin and r/Bisq subreddits

Efforts in r/Bitcoin are very very small. Efforts in r/bisq itself concerns a group of 790 subscribers (which is very small). r/bisq is atm absolutely not the place where the posts get the most views, comments and votes. (For the past week the numbers for the daily Bisq Offer Book on 12/13/14/15th are 151+144+178+89 -> 562/4=140 views as daily average)

This morning the daily BOB made 56 views on r/bisq and at the same moment 522 views for the 6 crossposts. It's the crossposts which make really plenty use of the initial publication.

exceed the value of our Twitter efforts by 3x (the 4500 BSQ originally requested above), or even 2x (~2500–3000 BSQ,

Posting in r/bisq is imo necessary because r/bisq is Bisq's basis in reddit. People who want to read informations about Bisq on reddit must have this place. But posting in r/bisq is certainly not sufficient to actively find new customers. To actively find new customers (who don't come entirely by themselves atm), you have to search those customers in the place where they are, ie in the subreddits they read.

My strategy atm is to crosspost the daily Bisq Offer Book to potentially concerned subreddits. The atm calendar is below.

monday tuesday wednesday thursday friday
xmrtrader EtcTrader Namecoin algoTrading ByteBall
LitecoinMarkets BitcoinMarkets CryptoCurrency CryptoTrading CryptoCurcies
Daytrading Unobtanium siatrader CryptoMarkets gridcoin
Trading dogecoin XSPEC Horizen dashpay
ByteBall zec zcoin Dex pivx

This calendar is evolving :

The goal is to, once a week, send a reminder to all those subreddits, that Bisq exists as a marketplace, to give them an example on what is on the market, and to provide links to join.

In a typical day, this represents 2 or 3 posts per day + 6 crossposts. For the month this amounts to : 50 posts + 120 crossposts. In addition to those posts/xposts, there are also questions/reactions etc. Which needs answers. Answers = comments. I posted 70 comments in august. That's 2 or 3 comments per week day. Each comment concerns a particular question/topic. You don't chose the topic. You have to answer.

In august (count v0.8.0 in) the numbers were : 50 posts, 150 crossposts, 70 comments. I consider that all the daily crossposts equates one post -> 150 xposts=30 posts (there is a 10' mandatory delay between posts/xposts) I'll also count each comment as a post. So the total for august = 50 + 30 + 70 = 150 posts

It may also be worth signaling that :

When I did my first estimation for this role, I tried to find points of comparison in order to fill my comp. request properly and fairly. The comparison point I had atm was @cbeams 's own work on twitter, who posted (on average value) 70 posts/month on twitter atm. -> https://github.com/bisq-network/roles/issues/21

So for posting a bit more than twice, longer posts, I require(d) roughly twice. (Please don't count the august premium as typical. I explicitely stated it wasn't.)

I remention also that this estimation was coherent with the hours spent and with my other role (support).

I may well understand the remarks about the budget versus the audience. But still, we should be careful with that :

(If we continue discussing this audience topic, another place than here maybe more appropriate.)

I am a bit more annoyed about the remarks about the budget versus the work done. I tried to ask rather precisely the same BSQs for the same quantity/quality of posts. I don't ask for more.

I'm also interested about answering @cbeams question about it's own figure, but I'll do it in another post (since it may have also other concerns).

alexej996 commented 6 years ago

I didn't realize that twitter activity is payed less than reddit. Maybe it doesn't make much sense to ask thousands for reddit at this point after all.

If Chris values the time spent on these things 1500 BSQ and yet it gives us so much more than reddit, we maybe shouldn't invest in reddit so much at this point. It might make more sense to have less activity on reddit then twitter if it isn't as profitable to do so, not more.

I agree with Chris that we shouldn't be paying more for less value to the Bisq. I don't see this problem just as something that can be solved with a fixed budget, since the performance for that budget is important as well.

ManfredKarrer commented 6 years ago

Lets make a though example: You have a budget if 5000 USD per month for promotion, where and how would you distribute it? I would assign probably 3000 USD on Twitter and 2000 on Reddit.

@cbeams performance on Twitter is great and easily more worth then 1500 BSQ - though it is very hard to estimate and I think it is easier that we ask ourselves what we want to spend and use a budget instead of trying to find the real value.

@HarryMacfinned Could you imagine to lower your efforts on Reddit in the way that it matches a budget the stakeholders are assigning for Reddit activities? I definitely appreciate that we get more presence on Reddit but I also want to keep it in right proportions to other expenses (Twitter, dev efforts, support,...).

cbeams commented 6 years ago

I'd be happy to try this kind of budgeting approach. It'll have it's own pitfalls, of course, but it may be better than the more arbitrary calculus I've been using around Twitter.

I think the important thing around these conversations is to keep progressing and keep trying new things until we land at a workable equilibrium. As I've said elsewhere, these are hard problems we're trying to solve around compensation, and though it can be a bit frustrating to do so, I think having these conversations are vital to getting there. Thanks everyone for your candor.

m52go commented 6 years ago

Part of the reason for Twitter's effectiveness right now is months of savvy management by @cbeams to get to this point. But valuing marketing is hard because you can put the same considerable effort in month-to-month but get wildly different results.

You may get nothing for a very long time as you build an audience, whereas you'll get relatively huge results for the same work with a huge audience. We're past that dark period for Twitter, but I don't think we're there yet anywhere else.

This means it's unreasonable to value marketing work on a developing platform by results, but it's also unreasonable to value marketing work on an established platform by results. Marketing needs to be valued by effort/hours put in. But because marketing efforts have varying levels of impact, unlike delivered code (for example), we need stakeholders to agree which marketing work is best to do in the first place. Which means, as @ManfredKarrer suggested above, that we need to collectively determine a monthly budget stakeholders find acceptable to spend on marketing.

Personally, I did not vote for this proposal because I didn't think the Reddit work was worth that much. @HarryMacfinned I value the time you're spending there, but at this point I see Reddit being more useful as a support forum than as a marketing tool. Reddit can be hugely powerful as a marketing tool, but that power (in my experience) comes from targeted posts & comments in HUGE subreddits (like 1,000,000+ subs). That's the only way get any attention there. Otherwise, with a small following, you're basically in a room by yourself talking to yourself (even if posts there are getting >100 views, they're getting little to no exposure outside the subreddit...which means there's a near-zero chance of going viral). Contrast that with a platform like Twitter: even with a small following, you're still talking to yourself most of the time BUT you're in the same room as everyone else, so you have a decent chance of going viral with any single post. YouTube also has this benefit.

Once we have a monthly budget, we can determine how many platforms we can financially support marketing on. Then we can determine which platforms those should be. Where do our most probable new users hang out? Twitter is an obvious one, email should be another one, but I'm not sure about another one. Reddit may show promise, but frankly I've never seen anyone interested in Bisq link to Reddit. Maybe YouTube?

Also I think we should also consider partnering with existing channels for exposure instead of trying to build our own channels. Twitter is crucial, and we've nailed that. Others are questionable/TBD. Perhaps it's better to spend time getting interviews on the many great podcasts & YouTube channels, doing guest blog posts, etc. on channels that already exist. The bang-for-buck factor will be through the roof, and if we pick smartly, we'll KNOW we're reaching the right people. Bisq has a stellar brand and the trust of many of the smartest, most prolific figures in Bitcoin—we should make use of it.

ghost commented 6 years ago

@Manfredkarrer wrote :

Lets make a though example: You have a budget if 5000 USD per month for promotion, where and how would you distribute it? I would assign probably 3000 USD on Twitter and 2000 on Reddit. @cbeams performance on Twitter is great and easily more worth then 1500 BSQ - though it is very hard to estimate and I think it is easier that we ask ourselves what we want to spend and use a budget instead of trying to find the real value. @HarryMacfinned Could you imagine to lower your efforts on Reddit in the way that it matches a budget the stakeholders are assigning for Reddit activities? I definitely appreciate that we get more presence on Reddit but I also want to keep it in right proportions to other expenses (Twitter, dev efforts, support,...).

Concerning @cbeams 's performance on Twitter, my opinion since the beginning (and as Chris himself expressed it somewhere in github, saying "I would pay more for the job"), is that this role (as achieved by him atm) is more worth then 1500 BSQ. I know enough about twitter to say that.

The case with reddit, as I do it atm, is that the role is quite a whole.

[It must however be pointed that the pure views metrics is not the whole picture. Bumping in small but motivated subreddits (eg bitcoin national subreddits may also pay)]

In reddit, what could be lowered/cut separately ?

The reddit channel itself doesn't seem to provoke enthousiasm here. The atm conditions makes it also not possible to pursue gently my role on reddit. The simple way I see lowering my atm activity on reddit is simply stopping it. If there is no discord, it's what I'll do.

I'm also very happy that we had this discussion now. And I thank everybody telling their opinion in advance. It's really better than at a end of month votation.

Some post-scriptum general remarks :

ManfredKarrer commented 6 years ago

@HarryMacfinned Yes Reddit indeed does not create enthusiasm at least for me. I just visited the new posting on r/Bitcoin (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9glgfq/bisq_the_decentralized_exchange/) and it is frustrating to see the level of ignorance, arrogance and generally low match with Bisq values. Of course there are great supporters as well, but at least for me I get mostly depressed by the Reddit users.

That does not mean I am against promotion on Reddit as I think it is still a big channel where we can find potential new users. For reducing the efforts to meet a smaller budget I would leave it to you how to do it with the highest efficiency.

joachimneumann commented 6 years ago

Hi,

I think that the value of reddit as a tool to help Bisq grow is limited and I would propose a monthly limit of 500 BSQ. The work as a reddit ambassador does not require a high level of qualification either.

Joachim