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bisq-network / compensation

@bisq-network contributor compensation requests
https://github.com/bisq-network/docs/tree/master/dao/phase-zero#how-to-request-compensation
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For December 2018 #95

Closed initCCG closed 5 years ago

initCCG commented 5 years ago

Summary

Details

Contributions delivered

As most know, and many liquidity weeks show, the developed world doesn't need Bitcoin very much, much less decentralized Bitcoin exchanges. We propose that Bitcoin is most needed and has the most potential on territories owned by groups with unwise and antiquated governing philosophies.

3 examples featured in this block of our work:

That is our view, and why we consider it imperative for Bisq to gain every possible foothold in these markets, before the powers that should not be in them are able to consolidate their control over the Bitcoin trade. These Bisq translations are meant to facilitate Bisq advancement there.

Contributions in progress

This section is optional.

Roles performed

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ManfredKarrer commented 5 years ago

Hi, I just want to give a quick feedback (traveling and not enough time to read all).

190k BSQ (equivalent to 190k USD) for translations is far off. I would not accept such a request with my voting power. Calculation based on words and past numbers is not a good metric. Why not just take what you have paid to the translators as your base and use that? I know it is hard and probably past contributions have been over-paid. But when you look at other requests (e.g. a request for a full month dev work is about 7-14k BSQ) you will see that this is not in balance.

initCCG commented 5 years ago

Ok, thank you.

Will do.

If you try to hire professional, or even freelance native speaker translators, you'll find that by the word is how they charge. The highest such rate we've been quoted by the most accomplished professional translators has been 0.07 USD / word.

If 1 BSQ = 1 USD, then even last month's translation request in #91 was wildly overpaid: https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/91 Even at that top professional rate, the 143 word translation, for which the contributor was paid 300 BSQ, becomes 10 BSQ.

We've so far translated and reviewed over 45,000 words, in 4 unrelated languages, with completely different alphabets, in high-risk jurisdictions.

Plus we had people assigned to find, interview and coordinate them.

So, it doesn't seem fair that we should be paid bottom rates for trying to quickly complete languages like Russian for example, which haven't been completed or had even one string reviewed years since their translation started.

We will of course accept whatever the stakeholders consider fair.

How do we find the lowest rate per word that a translation contributor was compensated in BSQ, and we'll recalculate using that? Would that be acceptable?

Thank you for our attention. i CCG

gpg: B03B 3301 83F3 A497 F433 CCD3 4424 816B 8323 5B37

On 07/29/2018 09:34 AM, Manfred Karrer wrote:

Hi, I just want to give a quick feedback (traveling and not enough time to read all).

  • The calculation with bond does not make sense. The arbitration bonds are not defined either atm. So please remove that as that adds just confusion.
  • 1 BSQ is considered as 1 USD - as there is no market nobody knows the real value (will likely be higher) but that is what all contributors base on their contribution.

190k USD for translations is far off. I would not accept such a request with my voting power. Calculation based on words and past numbers is not a good metric. Why not just take what you have paid to the translators as your base and use that? I know it is hard and probably past contributions have been over-paid. But when you look at other requests (e.g. a request for a full month dev work is about 7-14k BSQ) you will see that this is not in balance.

— You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/95#issuecomment-408664165, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/Am28qaSpSZl60d6MFzOimcQcRhFrgbFOks5uLYG-gaJpZM4VlVHb.

ghost commented 5 years ago

Concerning : https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/91

I'll (of course) adapt my june request to what is the real proper standard for this job.

I think however that the price/word is not the same when you translate pages and full sentences, than when you translate just one isolated word and the other. I don't say that for the small task I've done (doesn't seriously matter), but for wanting to have the translations done.

Since it's not a big amount, I think/suggest maybe the best is I'll simply annulate the BSQ request for this june translation task. (Others may use it as a wrong reference). And I may ask it later when we have better reference for how the translation task should be valued.

initCCG commented 5 years ago

We don't begrudge any contributor what they were paid.

In fact your valuation seems reasonable, because it seems rather a stretch to arbitrarily set a token that doesn't yet exist and has no market value at 1 USD equivalent.

Even Bitcoin didn't start that way; hence 10000 BTC pizzas back then... :) At this stage 1 BSQ = 0.01 USD or even 1 satoshi seems more appropriate. However, Bisq is not our organization. So, we naturally accept whatever the founders consider appropriate.

Perhaps, the bigger question then is what else has been wildly overcompensated in BSQ, since compensation in it began, and overlooked, because it was paid for small task blocks to individuals.

We just highlighted this question by delivering so quickly such a large and complete block of initial work as a group effort. i CCG

gpg: B03B 3301 83F3 A497 F433 CCD3 4424 816B 8323 5B37

On 07/29/2018 02:02 PM, Harry MacFinned wrote:

Concerning : #91 https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/91

  • this was my very first comp. request here,
  • and I never did professionnal paid translation before (not my job),
  • and I didn't find myself a reference for what to ask
  • and it only concerned a small number of words
  • and I didn't suggest using this "evaluation" as a reference

I'll (of course) adapt my june request to what is the proper standard for this job.

I think however that the price/word is not the same when you translate pages and full sentences, than when you translate just one isolated word and the other. I don't say that for the small task I've done (doesn't seriously matter), but for wanting to have the translations done.

Since it's not a big amount, I think/suggest maybe the best is I'll simply annulate the BSQ request for this june translation task. (Others may use it as a wrong reference). And I may ask it later when we have better reference for how the translation task should be valued.

— You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/95#issuecomment-408679839, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/Am28qcDwjhXOa6oPCkSJAutH9bJp6oWtks5uLcBsgaJpZM4VlVHb.

ManfredKarrer commented 5 years ago

@initCCG The 1 USD = 1 BSQ valuation is what we use since the beginning of the DAO and to change that would render all past requests incompatible as well all requests of other contributors. I also dont think that this is over valued, there will be 2.5 M BSQ which will represent the project value. Compared to OpenBazaar which got valuation of about 20-30M by the investment they received from VCs I think Bisq's project value is likely higher than 2.5M USD. Your 0.01 USD would render it to 25 000 USD, that is even less as what we have on the donation address and would be also the "printing costs of a BSQ in BTC (e.g. the 2.5 BTC used for funding the genesis tx).

Your numbers you mentioned above with 0.07 USD / word and 45k words would result in 3150 USD, so that would be very far away from 190k BSQ (USD). I understand that the confusion is coming from a different USD valuation you are using but as said that would render requests from different persons incompatible.

Please try to find a realistic USD value which you feel good with convert that to BSQ according to the "consensus exchange rate" of 1 USD/BSQ and adjust the request.

initCCG commented 5 years ago

@ManfredKarrer Thank you. Understood. Adjusted.

ManfredKarrer commented 5 years ago

@initCCG Thanks for the update! And thanks for the overview about the different markets.

ripcurlx commented 5 years ago

@initCCG Thanks for your detailed compensation request and contribution! The only thing I want to discuss is, if we should/want to have the same incentive structure as for development work. For development, only code that is actually shipped in a release is up for compensation. So the pull request might be merged to master already, but not shipped and thus not available to the end user. The reason for this is, that we only want to compensate anything that has direct end user value. If we do it for translations the same, it would mean you could do a compensation request after next release, which will happen this month. What do you think?

cbeams commented 5 years ago

+1 for delivered work in the context of translations meaning that they are included in a Bisq release.

ghost commented 5 years ago

As for the delivering, I would consider words being on the transifex as delivered, because : 1/ What happens after is no more in translators's control. Let's imagine that Bisq needs 6 months to propose a next version, this is Bisq's affair and no more dependent on translators. So imo translators should not be impacted/punished by that.

2/ Also, translation may concern people happening to have just some hours this or this day to do a part of the job, and not at all planning to finish completely a translation. If they think they will be paid in 6 months ... who will candidate ?

3/ translations may be done by people having 0 knowledge about Bisq, and just arriving here by hazard. If the rules are not straightforward, I fear they will not deepen a lot. They'll simply jump to something else.

As @BravoIndia wrote, the fact that very few translations were done in the first half of 2018 should be questioning.

We have to navigate between 2 reefs : overpaying ... and haven translations not done, even not beginning. The 2 reefs are bad, but being stucked with no translations even starting is really hurting for Bisq imo. The soft is here (lot of work done) ... but it misses some countries cause of no translation. I don't know what other stakeholders think about that.

BravoIndia commented 5 years ago

@HarryMacfinned Seconded.

@ripcurlx to expand on my opinion as to why words on transifex should considered delivered, when only development work that is shipped in a release is compensated, I'll paste my comments from #96 :

By limiting contribution requests to only completed languages you're severely limiting the incentives for individuals to work on languages which are presently at a low level of completion, and that's unfortunate. Transifex already provides a very reliable metric to evaluate productivity (string count / word count), and in principle, partial translations can be released and provide value [they are not the same as, say, partial code]. I think a partial translation is more analogous to an 0.x release update, and certainly no one would say that compensation for development work can't be requested until the 1.0 release. Furthermore, for a p2p decentralized exchange like Bisq, translation can provide immense value expanding the userbase toward those who need it most. Why would we seek to limit the incentives to progress toward that? Just like placing a 100,000 BSQ minimum on compensation requests would limit the amount of contributors, or when the government requires a heavy regulatory burden of small businesses it limits entrepreneurship--so will this limit the actual translation being done. And though I understand that the reality is Bisq won't release a partial translation--it's not as though the people here don't understand that partial translation work can easily and often is built on--especially if people are incentivized to do so throughout and not just toward the end.

A partial translation is, in principle, valuable. Just like code on a 0.x release is valuable, even though it's not on the 1.0 release yet. A partial translation is not partial in the same sense as 'partial code' is partial. Also, we know that we want the translation work for the languages that are open on transifex--it's not like code for features we're not sure whether we want in. And unlike code, once it's translated correctly (for the most part) it's translated--there's basically just one way to do it right, whereas with code even if a feature we want is implemented, it might be done too badly to be included in the release.

@ManfredKarrer raised some very interesting concerns in the other thread (#96), answering as to how some translation work might not be worth the cost. And he's right that that's a possibility. But in the case of the languages currently open on transifex, by paying a standard market-rate for translation I think it's overwhelmingly the case that Bisq will get a substantial bang for their buck, considering how cheap it is to acquire and how effective having the software in the local-language is for market penetration.

I mean, how many private companies wanting to expand internationally would not pay like $10,000 for their software to be translated into 3 languages? And that's more than $0.25 per word, let alone $1,000 for 3 languages (@initCCG 's rate, for which I think he deserves a higher management fee than 125 BSQ, frankly).

I think allowing compensation requests for partial translations, and paying a decent rate is the right move. And that incentivizing more translation work should be the higher priority.

ManfredKarrer commented 5 years ago

I agree that the amount @initCCG requested is very low and he deserves a higher compensation. Thanks @BravoIndia to bring that up! I see in the feedback that the model with getting paid when software is shipped gets quite a bit of friction and I think we should reconsider that model and/or make it more flexible. I have not a very strong opinion on either side. The goal with the strict model is that Bisq is not producing stuff which never is getting used but to focus on the value for the users of anything we do. But not applying that model everywhere does not mean it ends up in that negative situation automatically. If we take care and keep an extra eye on areas which might have an exception from that rule it still might work well if that areas is productive with what is paid for in BSQ. So I think we should be pragmatic here and see what works best.

I personally would like to delegate that to one who feels responsible to the translation area and come up with a suggestion which works for all who are currently involved. Simplicity of the model is for sure a great plus.

ghost commented 5 years ago

I have the same feeling. 200.000 BSQ was imo a far too high evaluation, but I feel a problem with 2000 BSQ for several persons realizing 4 translations. (Even if the cost of life varies indeed greatly from country to country.) It's also in Bisq's long term interest, we must no discourage future translations.

It's also true that having languages translations ... without arbitrators in the given language, is certainly a really hard issue (speaking from the support cubicle !).

initCCG commented 5 years ago

As we mentioned, we are not in a hurry to receive this compensation. We thought that we had to meet some kind of July deadline, and put submitted it now. We will change it to whichever month you wish. i CCG

gpg: B03B 3301 83F3 A497 F433 CCD3 4424 816B 8323 5B37

On 07/30/2018 06:46 AM, Christoph Atteneder wrote:

@initCCG https://github.com/initCCG Thanks for your detailed compensation request and contribution! The only thing I want to discuss is, if we should/want to have the same incentive structure as for development work. For development, only code that is actually shipped in a release is up for compensation. So the pull request might be merged to master already, but not shipped and thus not available to the end user. The reason for this is, that we only want to compensate anything that has direct end user value. If we do it for translations the same, it would mean you could do a compensation request after next release, which will happen this month. What do you think?

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/95#issuecomment-408763361, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/Am28qesJQwlK6xsAMjFpaiueo5SbcnTYks5uLqvcgaJpZM4VlVHb.

ManfredKarrer commented 5 years ago

@initCCG You can add a WIP (work in progress) to the title if you want to postpone it for next month and change title to August instead of July. There is no expiry data on completed work, so no issue if you move it to next month. I would recommend to do it as there are quite a bit of discussion going on to find a proper model how to compensate translation work and your current amount feels too low to me (and others). We are all in a learning period here as the model of our DAO is new and we need to find the best practice...

initCCG commented 5 years ago

One member of our alliance has followed Bisq since hearing an interview about it in 2016. This trial involvement has been useful for us, and we understand much more about the status of Bisq project and its organizational structure.

It is difficult to absorb so much verbose, complicated discussion in a foreign language.

We have a professional spokesperson in English, but we would have to bring him up to date on this, and expend his man-hours to work it, further increasing our costs, which we don't consider worthwhile doing yet.

We have already endangered ourselves and our subcontractors enough simply by funding Bisq translations for our significant markets that are ruled by soldiers and other militants, where Bisq/BTC are actually needed. So, we respectfully decline to join any calls at this time.

The compensation mechanism proposal we have would add complexity, as you indicated regarding compensation in arbitrator bonds, which seems similar to the way "gas" and "Eth" are are used. That debate would draw attention from development, which would be counterproductive for us and Bisq.

We are sure that our initial translations are not perfect, and continue to be "WIP".

We humbly accept whatever compensation will be awarded us by the stakeholders, under the rules of Bisq founders and your organization.

Buddha Nature tells us that "When words are the same as silence, better to be silent". We apologize that we cannot spend more man-hours and be more helpful on the compensation mechanism. We don't expect to have further comments on this matter at this time.

Thank you for your attention and consideration. CCG

Plow with Carabao!

Plow like Carabao!

gpg: B03B 3301 83F3 A497 F433 CCD3 4424 816B 8323 5B37

On 07/31/2018 06:11 AM, Manfred Karrer wrote:

@initCCG https://github.com/initCCG You can add a WIP (work in progress) to the title if you want to postpone it for next month and change title to August instead of July. There is no expiry data on completed work, so no issue if you move it to next month. I would recommend to do it as there are quite a bit of discussion going on to find a proper model how to compensate translation work and your current amount feels too low to me (and others). We are all in a learning period here as the model of our DAO is new and we need to find the best practice...

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/95#issuecomment-409106513, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/Am28qWCo6fYt2M1_gM7NkWIb-KkBxmMiks5uL_UcgaJpZM4VlVHb.

ManfredKarrer commented 5 years ago

@initCCG I am sorry to hear that it gets too complicated for you but understand it. A small suggestion from my side to make your request more realistic is to increase it to 3000 BSQ. But no worry if you don't want to. I will vote for your request anyway. You added a lot of value by providing the translations and the market making. All the details how we deal exactly with the requests and estimations are secondary at the end. Have understanding that we are exercising a new model and we are all learning how to do that best - both for contributors and BSQ stakeholders.

initCCG commented 5 years ago

Moved to September due to Thai formatting problem, new strings, and Persian review second opinion.

initCCG commented 5 years ago

Persian and Vietnamese new strings still not finished. Thai pending Java 10 integration.

ripcurlx commented 5 years ago

Java 10 support will be part of release 0.9.0 mid of October.

initCCG commented 5 years ago

Not yet delivered, pending 0.9.0 release and Persian review. Thai and Vietnamese ready to release.

initCCG commented 5 years ago

Not yet delivered, pending 0.9.0 release. Persian review still in progress. Thai and Vietnamese no longer ready to release due to latest 391 strings changed and added. We will not have manpower to do these prior to next release, except maybe Persian, if we're lucky. Latest strings and changes done in Russian, except for 1 new string for an obscure altcoin.

initCCG commented 5 years ago

Vietnamese and our part of Thai initial delivered. Persian has been removed, because still WIP.

ripcurlx commented 5 years ago

Closing as complete, see https://github.com/bisq-network/compensation/issues/183#issuecomment-451638745.