search

bisq-network / growth

Bisq exchange growth experiments
https://bisq.wiki/Growth_team
25 stars 11 forks source link

Fix issue with lack of signed accounts for Moneybeam, Uphold and PopMoney #212

Open pazza83 opened 3 years ago

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

Introduction

All of the below payment methods require signing yet there are no active signed accounts:

All of these payment methods allow chargebacks so signing is required.

This was raised as an issue here: https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/issues/4809#issuecomment-731446892

Action points

  1. In the first stage I will work with @sqrrm to address these issues and propagate signed accounts
  2. Once the above is addressed I will work with @m52go to see how these payment methods can be established. PopMoney has only had 21 trades in its lifetime that I can see on the Bisq client trade data.

Evidence of chargeback policies

Moneybeam (1) Prior to Issuing a Periodic Balance Statement Incorrect credit entries on current accounts (e.g. due to a wrong account number) may be reversed by the Bank through a debit entry prior to the issue of the next periodic balance statement to the extent that the Bank has a repayment claim against the Customer (reverse entry); in this case, the Customer may not object to the debit entry on the grounds that a disposal of an amount equivalent to the credit entry has already been made. https://docs.n26.com/legal/01+DE/01+Account/en/04account-terms-business-relationship-en.pdf

Uphold For regulatory and compliance reasons, we reserve the right to refuse to process, cancel or reverse, any add-funds and/or any add-Value transaction(s) if we suspect the transaction(s) may involve illicit activity like money laundering, terrorist financing, fraud, any crime, or as required by facially valid legal process, or relates to a Prohibited Use or Prohibited Business. We reserve the right to report, suspend and/or terminate Accounts for such suspected activity. https://uphold.com/en/legal/membership-agreement/general

PopMoney We have the right but not the obligation to monitor for, block, cancel and/or reverse [Prohibited Payments] payments https://www.popmoney.com/privacy.html

chimp1984 commented 3 years ago

Maybe a research on Reddit, trading forums, telegram groups might help to figure out if chargeback is a risk. The chargeback they mention in their terms is not the problem, the easy "call customer support that my tx was made by mistake" case is the problem (Paypal, Venmo, CashApp). Usually they have the term "Friends and family" only - thus justifying such "friendly" chargebacks.

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

Just did a quick search and get results back of reverse charges pretty quickly.

It is hard to quantify extent of what the problem is. All you have to go on are random internet strangers being annoyed about the account closures, freezes and reverse charges.

As you said previously I think care can be taken.

I think we have to take care to not bootstrap a payment method which might not see scammers initially because its low liquidity and once its successfully adopted scammers come and ruin all what we have built up. You cannot trust a random anonynmous stranger who has nothing to lose if the scam gets detected.

Some examples of chargeback risks

Popmoney User got funds refunded after scam on PopMoney https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/comments/cpmluz/scammed_and_need_help/

Moneybeam User had charge reversed https://www.reddit.com/r/number26bank/comments/cduiq2/dont_use_n26_their_customer_support_sucks/

Uphold Regularly block accounts https://www.reddit.com/r/number26bank/comments/gicprg/help_via_moneybeam/

If you forget to send us the required information within14 days, we’ll reverse the transaction to the originating bank or debit/credit card. If you deposit from a crypto network, you’ll need to send us the destination address of your wallet. https://uphold.com/en/blog/an-update-from-our-cco-on-transaction-monitoring

With all the above platforms they are not only the intermediary between the buyer and seller, they also have access to both users accounts. I think Bisq should be especially careful with these payment methods that have an eye over all aspects of the trades.

Requests for more information about trades, accounts being closed, frozen, and funds being placed on hold are all more likely with these methods than when a users with bank A sends funds to a user with bank B.

I think signing has an important role to play for payment methods that are at risk of chargeback AND for payment methods where users have more chance of facing restrictions by the because they are trading within the payment methods ecosystem.

This is partially from my experience of having to deal with issues from both banks and payment providers. It is always easier to satisfy the banks than it is the payment providers (who know more about the user than I do).

Eg Revolut asking me please tell me what more details about the payment to @chimp1984 is a harder question for me to answer than my bank asking asking please tell me more details about the payment your made John Doe from the UK.

I can tell the bank John Doe is arranging accommodation for me for the wedding I am attending next year, and they wouldn't know any different.

Revolut is more tricky.

Therefore I think signing protects the traders from more than just the risk of chargeback. I would often rather lose my trade amount than my access to the payment provider.

sqrrm commented 3 years ago

I added a way to introduce new signed accounts to markets with no signed accounts, see https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/pull/4957

Process would be, the DAO decides on some user that it feels is worthy of being signed to bootstrap the target markets. In this case I'm suggesting that the arbitrator will sign @pazza83 for these markets. The DAO deciding could reasonable be done with thumbs ups on this post unless there's some contention. I consider @pazza83's reputation higher than many of the users that had one trade which gave them the initial signed status when we introduces signed accounts.

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

Thank you.

I am happy to be signed for Moneybeam and Uphold, and if signed will put offers on multiple markets to allow signing to propagate. I think it is important to give these payment methods the opportunity to be used more widely.

I will try and see if I am eligible for a Popmoney account.

stopfeds commented 3 years ago

Thank you.

I am happy to be signed for Moneybeam and Uphold, and if signed will put offers on multiple markets to allow signing to propagate. I think it is important to give these payment methods the opportunity to be used more widely.

I will try and see if I am eligible for a Popmoney account.

I'd be happy to take your offer!

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

Thanks @sqrrm for implementing a solution to this.

Uphold and MoneyBeam have been sorted and there are now multiple signed accounts.

PopMoney still needs to be actioned. If there is anyone wanting to use PopMoney pease get in touch with my via Keybase user: pazza

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

Posted on Keybase looking for a user to help with propagation of signing